Malachai said:

No, it isn't. Unless you want to see the character build my gaming group only calls "The Instagibber" - a crazy powerful sniper who can one-shot Space Marines and three-shot Carnifexes. So a typical "Epic Encounter" breaker. Not to mention that this heavily favors sniping/camping in general, because the sniper can use an automatic weapon for sniping thus negating the CQC vulnerability of his specialization.

Sure! I wouldn't mind seeing the "instagibber."Some sort of bipod mounted storm bolter or plasma gun? But I'm not seeing something that you are. Could you please elaborate for me why this is a problem?

As using an automatic weapon for sniping, there are plenty of instances IRL where automatic weapons fired on single shot have been used for accurate fire over a long distance.What immediately comes to my mind were the cases in Vietnam where the mounted 50 cal. machine guns were given scopes to shoot at enemy targets .

Malachai said:

Of course! The problem is pretty easy: with the damage output potential of the Instagibber, combat encounters simply become boring. The other characters will be around the Instagibber only to act as fire magnets and to control hordes. You can't have an epic fight with some powerful opponent, because the Instagibber will kill the guy within 3 or 4 Rounds. The Instagibber simply kills the fun, because he snatches away the glory. And in Only War, combat is everything, so the Instagibber will be 500% more annoying.

AtoMaki said:

In general I thought that Sharpshooters and Ratling Snipers should be able to make incredible shots that could possibly lead to a one shot one kill. This would include Space Marines. After all how much armour does the visor of the Space Marine's helmet have? Or the joints on the Space Marine armour or their munitions Point is there is a weakness that can be exploited on most enemies.

As for the fear of them using their squad as lures I say hogwash. In the squad they are one in 10. Most of the time the squad is going to pour enough firepower downrange before the sharpshooter/sniper set up their shot.

Unless the sharpshooter/sniper operate in two "men" teams, the "sniper" in the squad is going to feel like a third wheel. When he/she does get to shine it should be upto to the myth of one shot one kill.

HappyDaze said:

I will agree with you there, a strange thought occured to me though and that is that the sniper rifle is the preferred weapon f the Ratling. Considering their size it makes more sense for it being a tripod and not a bipod, in my opinion.

In my experience it is the psyker with Sunburst and Flamebreath or the guy with the heavy bolter that outshine everyone in combat.
They usually demolish a target before the sharpshooter has his shot lined up.

AtoMaki said:

I apologize for the presumption, but given the way the system is structured, if you want everyone to have time in the spotlight, what needs to happen is the way your game's encounters are designed, not the way the system works.

If this idea for the bipod/tripod was introduced, the SP rifle would probably need to have a felling quality added to it to balance against the long las, but that's another kettle of fish.

Apologises if this has been mentioned before, but aiming a long-barrelled gun without resting the far end is far more difficult. A shooter free standing or croaching is at a severe handicap compared to a guy using a rest.

Suspending that "moment" through your arms leads to instability. In order to hit a head (assume a 160mm diameter circle) at 500 meters requires an angular accuracy of 160 microradians. If we assume one end is fixed and the barrel is 1 meter long, that translates to motion of 160 microns at the muzzle. Motions dues to, muscle tremor, heartrate and breathing are ampified down an unrested barrel.

From this you need to subtract the accuracy of the weapon/ammo itself and the enviromental uncertainties.

This isn't modelled in the OW ruleset. But imo any proper sniper shot (400m+) should use a rest.

Malachai said:

No way…. Deathwatch was a character centric social drama compared to Only War. In DW, you had complex social interactions in every corner outside of combat and you had the opportunity to advance your social skills to truly enjoy these interactions because you were a combat monster from the beginning. In Only War, the first character who dares to take a Fellowship Advancement is usually the first who will burn Fate to cheat death. Yeah, you have the opportunities, but with your minimal Fellowship and zero social skills, you have to pass them. Unless you run "Easy Mode" of course, but then you aren't playing Only War .

Also, to this Instagibber problem, I must add that the whole point of the build is that it is nigh impossible to counter. Because if you do, then the other part of the Squad will suck big time because of the much harder encounter. Yes, you can throw 4 Carnifexes at the Squad so the Instagibber will feel the heat too, but by the time the Instagibber finishes off all four monsters, the Squad around him will be dead.

Excellent points. In the games of DW I've played,while there was tons of in character drama, mechanically, it amounted to nothing because all of the players kept building up their kill-stuff-skills.


Re: Instagiber combat design:

I didn't mean 4 something like 4 fexes, i meant something like a 'fex with a horde of gaunts, or a cadre of warriors, a bunch of meddlesome gargoyles, or infilitrating genestealers.

But i feel like we've drifted from the point of the thread.

HappyDaze said:

If you put the "complete" in the rear, like in your example you would be right. However, when complete is in the front, it changes the context of it. Therefore, "Complete with tripod brace, silencer, and telescopic sight , in the right hands of a skilled marksman it can easily turn the tide of a battle" Comes to mean that it doesn't come with that, but if it did. The "when" is silent, so to say

Also, the difference between a bipod and tripod? In real life: A bipod only has a 90 degree deviation, but is more portable (attatched), where as a tri pod has a 180 degree swivel, but is far more bulky (and generally carried by an assistant gunner).

For the bracing, I'm on the side that people can't brace an autocannon or heavy bolter without a bipod or tripod (or the ground or some other stable surface). You say, "but space marine scouts can do it!" Look at their model again, they have BIPODS on it. Also, a scout is several times stronger than a standard person.

I don't know what caliber a heavy stubber is (I'd say anywhere from a .30 to .50), but I know that regulation says that a m240 cannot be fired from the hip. A m240 is a light machine gun, and has an assistant gunner to carry it's tripod, and has an attached bipod. Those are what are needed to "brace" it.

Long story short, to me, it makes more sense to me that to brace it, you need some sort of surface. A small machinegun, maybe not, but anything above at least a heavy bolter (especially a machine gun) should be.

Weapons that I can see being braced by changing stances:

Plasma Cannon

Melta Cannon

Missile Launcher

Heavy Flamer

Weapons that need a surface in order to be braced:

Heavy stubber (most likely)

Heavy Bolter

Autocannon

Arkangilos said:

And what about a character with Bulging Biceps then? So Joe, the S60 Guardsman must brace his autocannon on a surface, while Jimmy the S45+Bulging Biceps Guardsman can fire the beast on the run? Even though Joe is much stronger than Jimmy?

Don't apply Bulging Biceps to autocannons. Which are tank guns, so duh.

bogi_khaosa said:

Why not? It is a Heavy weapon, so Bulging Biceps affects it normally.

Here is what I would do in that case: He can brace it, but it can only fire Single Shot. If he rolls a jam, it broke his arm.

In my games, I wouldn't let an autocannon be fired without some sort of surface bracing. Of course, the characters can try to do whatever they want, but unless anyone has successfully fired anything larger than an automatic 20mm cannon from the hip, there will be some SERIOUS draw backs. There will always be those heroic moments when someone picks up a heavy machine gun and hipfires into a wave of incoming enemies, but those rarely end well anyways.

Arkangilos said:

Remember that we are in the 40th millenium, so God only knows what they use for autocannons. Maybe it has such an insane recoil reduction that it barely kicks more than a lasgun. For example, the Heavy Bolter and the Lascannon should have almost non-existant recoil, because of their unique firing procedure. You can't say that "OMG, you can't fire a 55mm automatic gun on the run IRL, so you can't do it here either!" because then the players could respond with the "Well, IRL, you can't shoot fireballs with your mind either!", and there goes your awkward silence .

AtoMaki said:

Because it's absurd.

Yeah, Autostabilized should be required for that.

bogi_khaosa said:

Why, is that barbaristic, humanoid fungi any more realistic? Or my shiny gun that shoots SCIENCE and uses handwavium as ammo? Or my buddy who can snap your arm with his thoughts?

These are all absurd. The whole universe is absurd. That's why it is Warhammer 40k.

AtoMaki said:

You've got a point, future weapon construction could make it have almost no recoil. However, I don't think that is the way it is in the fluff.

I can almost accept the heavy bolter being fired with bulging biceps, but I'm still completely out on the autocannon unless they have power armor with recoil suppressent systems (like a space marine).

Let's put it this way. According to the IG models for the last 10 years only the missile launcher and heavy flamer is equipped to braced across the shoulder, none of the other weapons are remotely set up to do that. So you could brace it across your shoulder but some-one else is going need to be behind you firing it.

Yes in the old days models all had shoulder mounted heavy weapons, but as is normal with 40K those kind of things are consigned to history. Maybe in the olden days they did have more expensive, lighter, lower recoil weapons but now just send two guys to lug it around it's cheaper. Plus they didn't have auto-cannons on those old models.

According to the rules with Bulging Biceps you can use any heavy weapons, including lascannons, autocannons and mortars without bracing.

I wouldn't let them though and i'd ensure that it makes physical sense for the layout of the weapon to be able to used fired from the hip. Even if that means that have to search around for a particular pattern of that heavy weapon or have a techpriest modify one specifically.

That's up to you though.

Let's put it this way. According to the IG models for the last 10 years only the missile launcher and heavy flamer is equipped to braced across the shoulder, none of the other weapons are remotely set up to do that. So you could brace it across your shoulder but some-one else is going need to be behind you firing it.

Yes in the old days models all had shoulder mounted heavy weapons, but as is normal with 40K those kind of things are consigned to history. Maybe in the olden days they did have more expensive, lighter, lower recoil weapons but now just send two guys to lug it around it's cheaper. Plus they didn't have auto-cannons on those old models.

According to the rules with Bulging Biceps you can use any heavy weapons, including lascannons, autocannons and mortars without bracing.

I wouldn't let them though and i'd ensure that it makes physical sense for the layout of the weapon to be able to used fired from the hip. Even if that means that have to search around for a particular pattern of that heavy weapon or have a techpriest modify one specifically.

That's up to you though.

For the Heavy Bolter (Gunnery Sergeant Harker has Bulging Biceps ):

For the Autocannon (not GW, but still plausible):

I bet that that isn't automatic fire though. (The second one).

I have no problem with a shoulder mounted autocannon that fires S/-/- without having to be braced up on a surface. However, to fire more than a single shot, it should have to be braced on some sort of surface.

Arkangilos said:

It is .

Which is absurd.

Play whatever way you want, but the idea of a guy firing an unbraced rapid-fire tank gun makes me lose my suspension of disbelief so fast I would just leave the room laughing.