Another Ironskin Wording Issue

By Antistone, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Seeing as the Sorcery vs. Ironskin thread has now been going on for over 200 posts, I'm sure someone here will appreciate another ambiguity in the Ironskin ability.

In WoD, AoD, and ToI, Ironskin says (among other things) that "all damage dealt to the figure by Blast, Bolt, or Breath attacks is reduced to 0."

The RtL version is slightly different. It says "all damage dealt to figures with Ironskin by attacks that affect more than one space (such as Blast, Burn, and Breath) is reduced to zero." (emphasis added)

Looking only at the Road to Legend version of the ability, I propose the following question:

Can an attack with the Sweep ability affect a figure with Ironskin ?

Notice that while the ability descriptions for Blast, Bolt, and Breath all explicitly say that the attack affects multiple spaces, the text for Sweep only says that it affects "all enemy figures within melee range of the attacker." There is no mention of "spaces" anywhere in the ability, and non-enemy figures within melee range are specifically excluded.

Lest someone attempt to argue that attacks definitionally affect the spaces of all affected figures, allow me to point out that that would make Golems immune to all attacks, because they occupy more than one space, so by that reasoning any attack that affects a Golem would affect more than one space.

I will also point out that there are attacks as old as Ironskin that are clearly blocked by the RtL version and that are not blocked by the original version (such as the Spirit Spear), lest someone argue either that they obviously wouldn't have changed the wording unless they wanted to change the behavior, or that the wording change is obviously incidental and doesn't affect anything.

Leap would be another interesting case, not necessarily with the same answer, but it's a lot more complicated than Sweep .

Antistone said:

Seeing as the Sorcery vs. Ironskin thread has now been going on for over 200 posts, I'm sure someone here will appreciate another ambiguity in the Ironskin ability.

In WoD, AoD, and ToI, Ironskin says (among other things) that "all damage dealt to the figure by Blast, Bolt, or Breath attacks is reduced to 0."

The RtL version is slightly different. It says "all damage dealt to figures with Ironskin by attacks that affect more than one space (such as Blast, Burn, and Breath) is reduced to zero." (emphasis added)

Looking only at the Road to Legend version of the ability, I propose the following question:

Can an attack with the Sweep ability affect a figure with Ironskin ?

Notice that while the ability descriptions for Blast, Bolt, and Breath all explicitly say that the attack affects multiple spaces, the text for Sweep only says that it affects "all enemy figures within melee range of the attacker." There is no mention of "spaces" anywhere in the ability, and non-enemy figures within melee range are specifically excluded.

Lest someone attempt to argue that attacks definitionally affect the spaces of all affected figures, allow me to point out that that would make Golems immune to all attacks, because they occupy more than one space, so by that reasoning any attack that affects a Golem would affect more than one space.

I will also point out that there are attacks as old as Ironskin that are clearly blocked by the RtL version and that are not blocked by the original version (such as the Spirit Spear), lest someone argue either that they obviously wouldn't have changed the wording unless they wanted to change the behavior, or that the wording change is obviously incidental and doesn't affect anything.

Leap would be another interesting case, not necessarily with the same answer, but it's a lot more complicated than Sweep .

I just shrug at this one and call at another example of bad technical writing (both in the original attack rules and in the ability rules). Luckily, sweep is a rare skill for heroes, and so is Ironskin, so the interaction of the two is very rare. Feats might change that, but it hasn't come up yet in our limited RtL feats playtesting.

RAW it seems sweep can affect Ironskinned creatures.
It is not at all clear whether sweep was intended to be included by the new 'shorthand' skill description clearly intended to be wider ranging (possibly so it can cope with future expansions).
It is clear, as you point out, that Sweep interacts poorly with the rules for attacks. Arguably for a Sweep there is still a single space being targeted for affect, however an addition effect of sweep extends the affect of the attack onto additional figures (but not additional spaces. That might introduce complex interactions with skills like Fear that I don't even want to think about... enfadado.gif

I think RAW I would have to go for the sweep attacks a single space but affects additional figures route (so Sweep can affect Ironskin). However I would discuss this with my group and my starting recommendation (before I heard what others thought) would be for this to stand purely on thematic (the worst, but what else is there) grounds. I don't see a sweep attack as being something Ironskin should protect particularly against, though I could be persuaded otherwise.

Sigh, just rewrite the basic rules properly pleeeease!

I think that Sweep would indeed hit a hero with Ironskin. As you pointed out, Sweep is different from Blast or Breath in that it specifically only hits non-friendly figures in range. Based on this wording, I'd argue that Sweep portion of the attack does not hit or target any squares, just figures (of course, the attack has to target a single square before the sweep effect happens). If that's the case, then Ironskin has no effect on it.

So, I think I agree with you.