ok so a brief review of the wookipedia article and then a quick eyes on that model raises an issue. the figure is obviously the same size as the tie bomber ( base comparison) but accoridng to the wookipedia that ship is a whopping 29m in length ( compared to the 20m of the lambda shuttle and the 7.8m of the tie bomber)

so if they have been working closely with lucas arts for comparative scales then something doesnt match. I see the source for the size on wookipedia is Wotc and I have never been that into extended universe so I have no idea. anyone an expert in this or do you think the photo of the models is just to "represent" them

Parakitor said:

Parakitor said:

Go ahead and buy your Larges. My guess, it'll be Christmas before we see these. The signs beneath the ships all said, "Not final - pending license approval." That means it's very unlikely the presses are even rolling. Based on how Wave Two went, yeah, I'd say Christmas.

I have pics, but can't figure how to post links here.

so, wow.. now that we have a peak at the B-wings stats.. i see the Y-wings becoming pretty much obsolete, as they have more firepower, same hit points only more sheilds rather than hull so they are far less suseptible to crits, and the ability to barrel roll makes them absolute monsters.. the only advantage the Y-wing has over the B-wing right now is the turret ion cannon and the ability to carry a droid.. which won't make up for it in my opinion

B-wing is going to be a for sure in my fleets.. and it's cheap enough to make any list run multiples and be VERY effective

Well I learned one new thing, they do read the forums. This is my prediction list. All the ships on it are picked for being the most easily recongizable. Obviously they know what ships to pick

Placing my bets on Tie Defender, Z-95, YT-2400, Sentinel Shuttle for the next wave.

Starfighters

1. Tie Interceptor
2. Tie Bomber
3. Tie Defender
4. Tie Scimitar
5. Skipray(Empire/Neutral)
6. A-Wing
7. B-Wing
8. Z-95(Rebel(NR)/Neutral)
9. E-Wing
10. K-Wing
11. Starviper(Neutral)
12. R-41 Starchaser(Neutral/Rebel(NR))
13. Preybird(Neutral/Empire)

Transports

1. YT-1300(Neutral/Rebel) Han Solo
2. YT-2400(Neutral) Dash Rendar
3. Firespray(Neutral) Boba Fett
4. Aggressor (Neutral) IG-88
5. YV-666(Neutral) Bossk
6. JumpMaster500(Neutral) Dengar
7. G1-A(Neutral) Zuckuss/4-LOM
8. HWK-290(Rebel(NR)/Neutral) Kyle Katarn
9. Sorosub 3000(Neutral/Rebel(NR)) Lando
10. Lambda Shuttle(Empire)
11. Sentinel Shuttle(Empire)

executor said:

I'm sad to agree with you. Grab your B-wings and guard them with some HWK-290s equipped with ion-cannon turrets. Now the B-wings get 360 support fire to pin down targets in addition to whatever other support the HWK pilot you choose will bring. I think, though, that might be one reason for the Proton Bombs -- they bypass shields. Of course, you would need 3 Proton Bombs if you were trying to take out B-wings without going through shields. That's gonna really constrain your squad.

I'm really happy with how they went with the B-wing's stats, though. I apologize in advance for tooting my own horn, but I called it that they were going to be inverses of the Y-wing. It's such an elegant move because it agrees with canon how the B-wings were fragile, yet in video games they seemed to be tanks. And as mentioned above, they have more immunity to critical hits.

As for the TIE Bomber, I'm hoping (perhaps in vain) for a pilot with an Elite Pilot Talent slot. If you were to deck it out with warheads, you really need Dead Eye so you can shoot at whoever's in range even if you are moving first. Of course, the Y-wing didn't get that privilage, so TIE Bombers may not either. (And I still get frustrated every time I think about how Horton and "Dutch", two squad leaders, don't get Elite Pilot Talents.)

And to tie it all back to Y-wings vs. B-wings, it is sad that Y-wings are a tad obselte, but that's what "really" happened in Star Wars, after all. If B-wings weren't superior to older models, why produce them? Same rules go for starship manufactures and miniatures games manufacturers. Still, I'm looking forward to running 3 Y-wings against some B-wings and seeing who comes out on top.

Actually though, I think Y-wings might still be used, if not for their generic stats and upgrades, for their unique pilots. "Dutch" handing out target locks to B-wings could be pretty nice, I think.

Budgernaut said:

this is what i was just thinking about literally 10 min ago, that dutch would be the only viable Y-wing to bring to the table as his free target locks will really make the B-wing superior with their advanced proton torpedoes and pretty much guaranteeing 5 solid hits every time

Budgernaut said:

One of the Lambda pilots (Colonel Jendon) lets you move a blue lock token from him to another ship at the beginning of the combat phase. It's not completely confirmed, but also a guess that the Fire Control System allows a free target lock acquisition at the beginning of the combat phase, and Jendon would be able to carry that.

It seems as if FFG has decided that the difficulty of acquiring/maintaining a target lock is one of the primary inhibitors in using the missiles, and are adding a lot of support options to make it easier/viable to run missile-heavy builds. The Advanced Proton Torpedoes are expensive, but honestly pretty terrifying - so long as you have a focus you're almost guaranteed 5 hits.

I'm curious to see what the verdict is on the Lambda and Crow once they actually see table use. The Lambda isn't bad, its stats are close to a Firespray, though I'd expect it to have no aux arc and a much worse dial. But the Crow… with only 1 attack, it's going to be pretty much a pure support ship, and with only 1 shield it's going to be a fragile one at that… and low 20s is expensive even before you start tooling it up.

executor said:

The Y-wing can carry Advanced Proton Torpedoes too.

I think the Y-wing still has a role. The B-wing is 4 points more expensive to start with, and can't mount a turret. In fact, I think the B-wing does nothing to encroach on the role you see the Y-wing filling at the moment - that of the cheap, tough, ion turret platform. A few people may play around with torpedo-heavy Y-wings, but it's rare enough to be pretty much invisible in the competitive meta.

I expect we'll see the B-wing run as a more expensive ship - a 25-point base with 10+ points of upgrades seems very likely. But that's not going to do anything to kick the Y-wing out of its current role.

What I think is sad that a friggen SHUTTLE is better than a smuggler craft.

Outer Rim Smuggler vs NAMED Captain Kagi Lambda class shuttle-

Cost: 27 / 27

Skill: 1 vs 8

Atk: 2 vs 3

Agility: 1 vs 1

Hull: 6 vs 5

Shields: 4 vs 5

Same action bars

Pro ORS: Turret main weapon, 2x crew, missle slot

Pro shuttle: Cannon, 2x crew, system upgrade slot

Umm, yeah, this looks balanced. Skill 8 vs 1? Atk 3 vs 2? No way that the 2-atk primary weapon being a turret makes up for the price difference. Kagi should be more expensive, or ORS should be cheaper.

Buhallin said:

maybe.. but the B wing can still use the 3 pt Ion cannon, and while not as effective, it still has far better survivability over the Y wing and a superior firepower with the ability to barrel roll (which should not be underestimated as a beautiful defensive manuver)

i will definitely fly B-wings with and without missle support, and because they have 8 hp's total, they will survive almost just as long if not longer than an X-wing for the same price because of the barrel roll abilities

once the public has their hands on them to do the real testing to find out what's good will be the real deciding factor to what's going to work

but at least since wave 2 has been released that lists have become very diverse with people flying what they want and making their lists very successful when flown right, so it will also be up to the players to make them worth their points
i believe B-wings are going to be a ship that will fit my playstyle very well (shoot first and ask questions later) lol

Buhallin said:

Agreed, disappointed in the stats for it, especially for the cost. Hopefully the pilots have good talents, and maybe a new turrent to make it worth while.

dvang said:

i totally agree.. i have yet to see a list that successfully runs ORS.. it definitely needs to be cheaper to see use.. 27 is too much

and i completely agree with that shuttle.. either drop that pilot skill to 5 or 6 or increase the price.. 27 is far too low to be even remotely balanced.. i can't imagine how cheap the basic shuttle is going to be?.. unless the non named pilots are going to be base attack of 2 for 23pts or so.. then it might be a bit more balanced

either way.. i agree kagi should be at least in the 30-33 pts range

Buhallin said:

i agree the B-Wing will likely eat up 1/3 of ur 100pts by the time u add upgrades. im seeing it a s support ship for Han or Han +Rookie or two x-wings (one a name pilot). id even use two B-Wings to support a name pilot like wedge. They seem to have durability and evasiveness with barrel rolls. Lets see what the new rebel name pilots are like.

Hello,

Jus one point about the size of the miniature for the Moldy Crow.

If you watch this cross sections :

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/046/d/d/the_incredible_cross_sections_moldy_crow_by_millenniumfalsehood-d4k1has.png

It is clear that this ship if far smaller than the YT-1300.

So wookipedia is not accurate regarding the size of this ship.

Random responses:

- I'm not arging that a B-wing won't be more desireable than a Y-wing - what I'm saying is that the Y-wing currently has a solid niche in its role, and the B-wing isn't going to encroach on that. If anything, I think the B-wing will challenge the X-wing as the primary combat fighter for the Rebels… but the Y-wing is safe in its niche.

- We have yet to see the dial for the Lambda, which will probably be a very big deal. The YT-1300 has a stupidly awesome dial for such a big ship. I'm expecting the Lambda to be closer to a Y-wing, if not even worse. Awesome stats mean little with a fixed arc and little opportunity to maneuver. It honestly won't surprise me if the Lambda is the first ship without a K-turn on its dial. That's not necessarily a prediction, but it would make sense. The Lambda and Crow are both support ships - anyone expecting the shuttle to be a great dogfighter is likely to be mistaken, so probably a bit early for panic.

- A Blaster turret, as people have been wanting for the Y-wing, would make the Crow a far more viable combat ship. But even lacking that, the abilities themselves are pretty impressive. Are they worth 20-something points? I dunno, but if a few poitns of upgrades turns it into a decent combat ship in its own right, they certainly would be.

Buhallin said:

well hopefully those that got a chance to play with the models today will be able to disclose to us the types of manuvers these ships can perform

and for the insanely cheap costs of these shuttles.. not being able to do koiogran turns would indeed make them more balanced in terms of points and making players seriously think about running them as it would be far too easy to stay out of their firing arcs after the first wave of attacks happen

Executor, you have unrealistically hight hopes for the new models. NOBODY got to play with them. Even FFG personnel lamented not being able to even fiddle with them - much less run them in a game. The four prototypes are just that; pending licencing approval prior to production.

So, we'll have to use our imagination.

Uh, if people are talking about the scale of the Crow, something Christian Petersen said on BGG:

"Guys, both the HWK and the A-Wing (and other current X-Wing ships) are made to the most correct and official sizes. All these ships are correctly proportioned to each other. This has been intensively researched at FFG in collaboration with experts at LFL. We have chosen not to go the route of the most popular opinion on sizes, but the most objectively correct ones. I hope you agree this is the right choice.

Wookiepedia, for all it's awesomeness (we love it too), is not the authority on these matters. As with the TIE fighter, there are a lot of subjective opinion on what the size should be (vis-a-vis various references), and like the TIE, the HWK data has been incorrectly stated in many sources. The FFG size of the Mouldy Crow is the correct size per thorough review of the original source material.

Obviously there is much personal preference and debate on sizes, but FFG has sought with LFL to provide the most accurate scale and proportions possible. I can assure you that we take this very seriously, and the sizes of these are not arbitrarily chosen.

We're very excited about wave 3 and the other X-wing models that we're working on. Thanks for your enthusiasm for the game.

Cheers,

Christian
FFG"

I have no reason to disbelieve FFG… so *shrug*

Now, when it comes to the B-Wing versus the Y-Wing, I can see no reason to take the Y-Wing ever again unless you wanted a cheap turret platform. The B-Wing has more hitpoints, the same twin torpedo slots the Y-wing carries, a sensor hardpoint which can give you free target locks at 3 points, and a higher attack. The only thing Y-Wings have going for them is their cheaper costs, but who ever takes bare Y-Wings into battle?

If the HWK-290 comes with a decent laser turret, then you can give them to Y-Wings, which turns them into flying gunboats with the resiliency to take a beating and dish it out in all directions while covering one another in their spot on the board.

The Heavy Protons are very conditional IMO, and probably not worth the points unless you give yourself enough setup. You need to have both a Target lock and a focus to use them effectively, which is tricky to do with one pilot at present….unless you're a B-Wing with an Advanced Targeting Computer. Then you choose focus when you're in range 1 and blast away.

Not sure how I feel about the HWK-290 and the lambda… I'd have to know more about them before I could get excited. Though the sidekick allowing a pilot at range 1 to attack at PS12 for free is kind of important. This lets you punch first with Han, or designate someone to blow up an enemy fighter before he has a chance to potentially blast the HWK-290. The Lambda has some interesting support options but I want to know who ace pilot no. 3 is.

IG-58 said:

sorry, i know they are pending approval but i figured that after they had pre set lists made up that they were either showing the lists off to people or giving people a chance to try them out.. makes me wonder why they even bothered to put up squad lists then?

also figured that after showing these models and stats to the public that the ships would officially be in the "beta" portion to generate feed back from the public before commiting (pending approval of course) to the final stats

Budgernaut said:

Sorry had to adress this before I forgot about it in the shuffle:

Actually as I recall in the EU Y-wings where still in service even after the B-Wings were phased out and the B-Wings never became mainstream ships. The primary reasons being that they were expensive to produce (Which judging by that 22 cost, pilot skill 2 generic seems to hold true) and general difficulty of piloting and tempermental controls, which I except to see represented by a dispropotionatly high number of red manuvers on the dial. They were effective ships but there were only a few pilots that could really make them dance and they were too costly to risk on anyone that couldn't. I actually think that with new torpedoes and hopefully new turrets being packaged with the crow the Y-wing will finally get the adaptability to make it a more popular ship.

My prediction is that the B-wing is going to be devestating on inital passes but will need a substantiol escort to pull heat off and allow it to make long slow passes at the main fight.

Norsehound said:

Sounds/looks right to me. I played all those games, and the Moldy Crow didn't look to be much bigger than an X-wing, with my character standing next to it.

Random Responses

- Agreed, The Moldy Crow always seemed more like a fighter in the dark forces game than a large frieghter. I actually thought it was a 2 seat fighter back when I played the heck out of that game.

- Another thing of note - is none of the revealed imperial shuttle pilots have the elite talent slot .

- It makes sense that Jan Ors is a higher PS than Kyle Katarn - given that Kyle was really more of a passenger - from their dialogue in Dark Forces, he didn't even seem to me much like a co-pilot till Jedi knight.

- Did I do my math right? are we looking at a 43 or 44 point fully loaded (but not modified) tie bomber? That's a versatile weapons platform, I somehow doubt one would survive well enough to fire everything.

- Does anyone think the position of the wings on the lambda will have any "game effects", or is it just pure window dressing?

executor said:

I am excited about the HLC B-Wing shuffle.

B-Wing shuffle: 1 straight manuever (if it has one), barrel roll back and forth so you move very little while shooting the cannon. This would work well with the ion cannon as well since now you can field 2 of them for 50 points leaving enough points for two x-wings with 'mechs.

ETA: I think I have finally found a compelling reason to take Garven and lower skill pilots with torps.

Buhallin said:

I pray you're right but I don't expect much. As you say, the YT is awesome despite its size. I can forgive that, personally, because the Falcon's a hot rod and super-cool and seen to bob and weave like mad on screen*. But will the developers remember that the Lambda is not any of those things? In a game allegedly about dogfighting and careful maneuvering, they have shown a worrisome disregard for the importance of maneuver dials. See: green everywhere on A-Wings and Interceptors, the "green everywhere" droid costing a measly 1 point, the (suggested) lack of importance of dials and action types in squad point costing**.

The Y-Wing's dial sucks so badly I can hardly imagine getting any worse. It's a tragedy, really. Wookiepedia claims the B-Wing is actually less maneuverable in a dogfight than the Y-Wing. Yet the thing can barrel roll, and there's not really any room to go down from 1 dodge die. And how is anything gonna be worse than a Y-Wing's dial without just being red everywhere? Frankly I expect the B-Wing and Shuttle to have strong maneuver dials akin to the X-Wing. Just not because they should.

*That the not-rodded up Outer Rim Smuggler gets the same moves, I just sort of ignore. Not important to me somehow.

**Reference to ShadowJak's old thread.

Reds everywhere would make perfect sense for a B wing though. It wasn't that they couldn't manuver, it's that doing so caused certain systems to fail.