MrBaldwin said:

Just a thought, but maybe a Jedi could automatically call a lightsaber that he/she build to his/her hand from close range with no need for a roll (assuming there's nothing in between them and the lightsaber. I agree with your justifications for why the talent is powerful enough as is, but I think people (me included) like the idea of having a benefit, however small, to a lightsaber that you built yourself.

Well, something like that is pretty much a retread of the Move power, which just the basic power alone lets you recall a small object from within Short Range for a single Force Point, which will get easier to accomplish as the Jedi increases their Force Rating, making such a proposed perk to a self-built lightsaber kinda redundant.

Being able to call it for no required roll means you can still do it even if you've locked up all your force dice for other things.

MrBaldwin said:

Just a thought, but maybe a Jedi could automatically call a lightsaber that he/she build to his/her hand from close range with no need for a roll (assuming there's nothing in between them and the lightsaber. I agree with your justifications for why the talent is powerful enough as is, but I think people (me included) like the idea of having a benefit, however small, to a lightsaber that you built yourself.

Well, something like that is pretty much a retread of the Move power, which just the basic power alone lets you recall a small object from within Short Range for a single Force Point, which will get easier to accomplish as the Jedi increases their Force Rating, making such a proposed perk to a self-built lightsaber kinda redundant.

Being able to call it for no required roll means you can still do it even if you've locked up all your force dice for other things.

I think also something like this shouldn't be a "Jedi only" thing, but a feature available to any Force-user with the Move basic power. I might add it as an option in the "minor Force power" section. It'd still require the Force-user to have at least one Force die available to activate the Move power, but said minor power would allow the character to use Move as an Incidental action, but only once per round (similar to how Quick Draw is a "once per round" effect).

Alternatively, it could be an option to replace one of the Control Upgrades on the Move tree, perhaps replacing the "fine manipulation" ability.

Either way, it'd be limited to very small items (Encumbrance 1, maybe 2 at most) and couldn't be used to attack someone.

The only issue with this is: how do you get ranks in the Lighsaber skill without a functioning Lightsaber? How I understand ranks to work in this game means that she can't just waive a stick or the lightsaber hilt around... that just wouldn't do.

Still, thanks for the suggestion, I'll figure something out along these lines.

The same way you've got people that have studied military tactics yet have never participated in a single real battle. Or know all sorts of things about how the rules in a particular boardgame operate, but have never actually had the chance to sit down and play the game in question.

So for this PC, she might know all the theory about how to use a lightsaber in combat. Actually, I'm kind of reminded of Hermione from the Potterverse. She'd read all about pretty much everything to do with magic, but had little to no practical experience in using those spells, particularly outside of a classroom or in a high-stress situation (at least not until a few books later).

Interesting. I thought a failure cancelled a success, therefore in effect it was a failure if you produced one of each symbol, a so-called draw.

Per RAW, you're right, in that if there's no successes left after removing any failure symbols, then the roll failed. The only times in the rules were the notion of a draw comes into play are competitive checks (which under normal circumstances would require both parties to re-roll the check, though my Deflect Blasters is an exception) and initiative check (in which Advantage are used as tie-breakers, with the player winning the tie if the number of successes and advantage are both the same).

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I actually require the Sense ongoing power to do it, since you need to be using the force to even try to reflect bolts back at people. Other upgrades can increase the chances, but only if you have at least one Sense upgrade.

And I personally like the idea that a cancellation with no net Successes or Failures is neither a success or failure. During combat, you obviously still miss, but during other things (like jumping over a chasm, for example) it could mean the difference between falling 20 feet and catching a rocky outcropping with an Athletics check or automatically catching the edge, but just barely and not enough for you to not be able to pull yourself up without assistance or a **** good Athletics. In this case, I see that as not truly reflecting it back, since it didn't generate enough "Failures" to actually hit back at the target; just to make it not hit either person.

I can appreciate that you're at least requiring the Sense ongoing effect (presuming the player would need to have the defensive upgrade active as opposed to the offensive one), but I'm still not sold on this being something that any Force-sensitive character with the Sense Power and a lightsaber can do, particularly as the Sense upgrades already provide a pretty nice perk even if one doesn't have a lightsaber. Perhaps as an alternative, require the offensive Control Upgrade, only replace the "Ongoing Effect: upgrade a combat skill check" with "Ongoing Effect: option to spend enemy's Despair on a failed attack that targets you to deal damage to one enemy within range." Simply, the player chooses one effect or the other, not both, for that particularly round.

I'm also kinda thinking that having the additional failures = extra damage and threat be spent like Advantages is creeping over to the wrong side of that "too powerful" line, since it could happen no matter if it's a seasoned Jedi with plenty of training in the Force (of the sort of character possible using any of the Jedi Careers that are out there) or a rank neophyte that has only just picked up a lightsaber. By having it be an Ongoing Effect, that cuts down on the "so awesome, why wouldn't I use this!" factor, as the player has to choose to devote one of their precious Force dice to that ability as well as decide if they want the combat boost of upgrading an attack roll twice or want the opportunity to score a free attack.

There's still the issue of "how often do Despairs come up at your table?", particularly if the only means the Force-user has to upgrade the difficulty of an enemy's attack against them is the 'danger sense' Control Upgrade, which at most only affects two attacks per round. Granted, things like Dodge or Side Step (or even Adversary for NPCs) adds more difficulty upgrades, but not every Force-user can be assumed to have specializations that offer those talents. But that is likely to vary from table to table. As I've noted, I've heard of a lot of varying results as to how often Despair results came up, from rarely seeing them during a several hour session to seeing them every few dice rolls.

In my opinion, if those talents aren't availiable, then the martial training and dexterity also required, in additional to the precognition which is covered by Sense, to reliably deflect lightsabers is not going to be as available to you as it might be for others. And you have a much better chance of scoring additional failures if you are a seasoned jedi because you get all of those extra Deflection modifiers and stuff from upgrading checks. Essentially, this solution accounts for all of that by just adding a simple house rule.

In my opinion, if those talents aren't availiable, then the martial training and dexterity also required, in additional to the precognition which is covered by Sense, to reliably deflect lightsabers is not going to be as available to you as it might be for others. And you have a much better chance of scoring additional failures if you are a seasoned jedi because you get all of those extra Deflection modifiers and stuff from upgrading checks. Essentially, this solution accounts for all of that by just adding a simple house rule.

Okay, just so that I'm clear, when you are referring to "if those talents aren't available," are you referring to a homebrewed "Blaster Deflection" talent, the Sense Upgrades, or something else?

Hi all!

First, Donovan, your blog is awesome, thanks!

My question is about a design concept. When you create skills, talents, powers or other rules do you use to care more about fit them in SW universe or in roleplay mechanics balance?

Personally, I don't use to care so much about balance in games or more preciselly in games design concepts. If a Jedi can beat up to 15 outlwaw technicians without take a breath or move and launch up to a large amount of gargbage, why I have to limitate that saying things like "-4 Strain" or other limitations like "Once per session/encounter". If simply I don't want that a takes a powerful power/talent just because "he/she has enought points to buy it" because its too powerful I saimply say that "not, you need an event like a holocron or a master to learn that".

My players use to know that for shooting three rat womps you cannot earn Super Force Move just because you are Sensitive and you got enough XP. Its not a videogame.

Also they don't become angry (at least some of them, there are always Force haters XD) when they confront a Force user and began to run because they know that its almost improvable that cannot face him/her.

Thanks again for your blog!

This is my first post here, I was quite excited when I saw that EoE was coming out.

Then I saw that there was no official force using mechanics. I have read a lot of the forum comments here about people being happy because force users screw up their games. That is not the players problem but a GM problem. Any character can be unbalancing giving the right circumstances. The force is a core to nearly every novel and each movie that is Star Wars. Without the force Star Wars is just... Well a kind of neat sci fi setting.

So I wanted to say thank you for this work, it may make me decide to purchase this set of books... I am still thinking about it.

Then I saw that there was no official force using mechanics.

But the book has official force using mechanics, there is just no Jedi career.

Josep,

First, thanks for the compliment. Glad you've found my blog entertaining, though I really should do a better job of keeping that sucker updated.

As far as designing new material, it's a balancing act between both. I want to try and capture the flavor and feel of what we see on the screen and in the books, but I also want the new material to not be horrifically overpowering, something that professional game designers have had trouble with when it comes to Jedi ever since the days of WEG's d6 system.

While your group of players may not have an issue with one player in particularly being far more powerful than the rest of the group, not every group is going to feel the same way. I've tried to keep things from going overkill, especially in regards to the Jedi Initiate, but the fact it took me several months of playtesting, revisions, more playtesting, more revisions, and with more revisions and playtesting on the horizon (particularly in light of the announcement of the Age of Rebellion beta rulebook) speaks to the fact it's not an easy or sure-fire process, especially when one is doing this as a labor of love in contrast to FFG who have paid staff and a much broader base of testers both in-house and amongst the fan community.

Now that doesn't mean I don't like high-powered games or playing high-powered characters (had a blast playing Superman in a friend's Mutants & Masterminds 2e Justice League game, and the build lived up to the moniker of "Big Blue Cheese" as well has having played a full-blown White Council Wizard in a different friend's Dresden Files RPG game). Back for Saga Edition, I had a set of house rules that GM Chris rightly noted would be perfect for replicating Starkiller as we saw him operate in the Force Unleashed video games or the Jedi from the 2D Clone Wars cartoon mini-series. But I also know full well that not everyone shares those tastes, and I'd like to make my homebrew stuff as viable for as many different GMs as a I can.

Also, FFG has put similar constraints in terms of keeping various character options in at least some sort of balance with one another, so in that respect I'm trying to play by their rules.

I hope that explains my perspective, at least to some extent, when it comes to creating home-brewed talents and specializations.

This is my first post here, I was quite excited when I saw that EoE was coming out.

Then I saw that there was no official force using mechanics. I have read a lot of the forum comments here about people being happy because force users screw up their games. That is not the players problem but a GM problem. Any character can be unbalancing giving the right circumstances. The force is a core to nearly every novel and each movie that is Star Wars. Without the force Star Wars is just... Well a kind of neat sci fi setting.

So I wanted to say thank you for this work, it may make me decide to purchase this set of books... I am still thinking about it.

Thanks.

Like Jegergryte said, there are basic rules for Force-users in EotE, just not for Jedi specifically. The three powers included in the EotE rulebook do cover the basic stuff we see Luke do in the films, such as telekinesis, enhanced combat prowess, sensing thoughts/emotions, and mind trickery, but that's the extent of it.

I can understand and appreciate why FFG made that particularly choice (seeing as how Jedi are extremely rare in the Rebellion Era), but obviously there's enough disagreement with that sentiment on my part for me to have created this supplement in the first place.

Even without the plethora of Force options that the d20 or d6 systems had, EotE is a really solid game, and I'll admit to becoming rather spoiled on the narrative dice system, as it opens up so many possibilities now that dice results aren't limited to the binary "pass/fail."

As for Force-users causing problems in other folks' games, I liken that to the issue of writing a really good Superman story for the comic books. Superman is probably one of, if not the most powerful superhero in the DC Universe, to that point that this guy's secondary powers are on par with people who have similar traits as their primary powers, especially when he decides to take the kid gloves off. Having been on both sides of the "Jedi are ruining my game because they're too powerful!" equation, it's a tough balancing act sometimes, particularly when the Jedi player that's causing the issues is one of your best friends and is obviously enjoying themselves. For some GMs, it's just easier to throw in the towel and kill the game, or at least remove the Jedi PC.

I think the biggest issue comes with the players simply not keeping in the spirit of what a Jedi should. There's an excellent chapter in the RCR d20 sourcebook "Power of the Jedi" that goes in depth about what it means to play a Jedi (bearing in mind this book was released not long after Attack of the Clones), and honestly was very enlightening, to the point that I still go back every once and a while and re-read that chapter to help keep it fresh in my mind for when I am playing a Jedi character, or have a Jedi character in my group. I've also made it required reading for anyone that wants to play a Jedi in any game I run, and that the character will generally be expected to behave by those rules unless they want to be swimming in Dark Side points. It's helped cut down on the "psychic thug with a glowing sword" issues quite a bit, but I know that tracking down a 10+ year old sourcebook for a defunct game system isn't a viable option for everyone.

Hi, Donovan. Will you be releasing the next version of Ways of the Force once the Age of Rebellion Beta book becomes available? Cheers.

Hi, Donovan. Will you be releasing the next version of Ways of the Force once the Age of Rebellion Beta book becomes available? Cheers.

It'll probably be a couple of weeks after I get my own copy of the Beta, as I want to take stock of any new Force Powers that might be included as well as the Force Sensitive Emergent spec, to say nothing of the inevitable new talents that the AoR beta will offer.

Right now, the plan is to release v1.1 of Ways of the Force on or around Labor Day weekend. I'd already made some substantial changes (such as restructuring of the Jedi Initiate tree and a new Force Power tree) before the AoR Beta was announced, so it just makes more sense to wait until after I've got that book and see what other changes I might want to make.

In my opinion, if those talents aren't availiable, then the martial training and dexterity also required, in additional to the precognition which is covered by Sense, to reliably deflect lightsabers is not going to be as available to you as it might be for others. And you have a much better chance of scoring additional failures if you are a seasoned jedi because you get all of those extra Deflection modifiers and stuff from upgrading checks. Essentially, this solution accounts for all of that by just adding a simple house rule.

Okay, just so that I'm clear, when you are referring to "if those talents aren't available," are you referring to a homebrewed "Blaster Deflection" talent, the Sense Upgrades, or something else?

Sorry, was at a convention until earlier today, so I didn't get a chance to get back to you.

I was referring to talents like Side Step or Dodge. If your non-FS talent tree doesn't have those, you can't really rely on your defensive training to help you more easily position yourself and your blade; you would have to rely more on the Force, since the only upgrades would be from the Sense defensive effect. On the other hand, if you were playing a scoundrel/FS, your ranks in Side Step would come in handy, since your dexterity and quickness in avoiding blasterfire suddenly becomes very handy when trying to position yourself perfectly to line up that reflected shot.

*brushes away the dust*

Been quite a while since the last update.

For those interested, version 1.2 has just been released, and you can grab it from my blog, either via the link in my signature or in the first post of this thread.

Mechanically, there's not a whole host of changes, with the two big ones being a re-working of the Injure power and a (hopefully) much simpler rule structure for the Resist Force minor power. The specs each got a minor tweak, mostly replacing one talent with another that I felt was a better fit for the general theme of the specialization.

In terms of appearance, the look of the file has changed a fair amount, and hopefully has more of a professional look to it.

The new layout looks really nice.

The new layout looks really nice.

Thanks. Sadly, I don't have the design chops to get the specialization trees to look like the ones in the rulebooks, which is something I hope to be able to address at a future date. And while there are folks that I'm sure could 'dress up' the file, I'd rather keep this one strictly in-house as it were.

*yoink*

I hope to take advantage of the injure force power for the Hand/Inquisitor type character I plan throwing at my FS:Em.

Color me impressed once again, Donovan. You've basically taken what I've been trying to work at for a few weeks now and launched it out the airlock! Good work!

Although I may tweak some of what you have here for a side project (a Phantasy Star Hack a friend asked for), and I'm always debating about the capabilities of a Lightfoil (especially the post cleansing version), so I may tweak that one a bit before utilizing.

Thank you for your awesome work!

*yoink*

I hope to take advantage of the injure force power for the Hand/Inquisitor type character I plan throwing at my FS:Em.

Yeah, I've gotten some good feedback on how Injure works. Nasty enough to put the PCs on their toes, but it's not excessively dangerous unless the Force-user has pretty much mastered the power.

Color me impressed once again, Donovan. You've basically taken what I've been trying to work at for a few weeks now and launched it out the airlock! Good work!

Although I may tweak some of what you have here for a side project (a Phantasy Star Hack a friend asked for), and I'm always debating about the capabilities of a Lightfoil (especially the post cleansing version), so I may tweak that one a bit before utilizing.

Thank you for your awesome work!

You're welcome.

Yeah, the modern lightfoils were a tricky one for me to work out. Although, you may want to check out the version that Phil Maweiski did for his Edge of the Jedi fan supplement. He made it a little more boss (Damage 7 with Breach 1 for instance), but it's also Rarity 10 and was priced based upon the EotE Beta priced update for the lightsaber (50K credits instead of the 10K credits listed in the core rulebook).

Color me impressed once again, Donovan. You've basically taken what I've been trying to work at for a few weeks now and launched it out the airlock! Good work!

Although I may tweak some of what you have here for a side project (a Phantasy Star Hack a friend asked for), and I'm always debating about the capabilities of a Lightfoil (especially the post cleansing version), so I may tweak that one a bit before utilizing.

Thank you for your awesome work!

You're welcome.

Yeah, the modern lightfoils were a tricky one for me to work out. Although, you may want to check out the version that Phil Maweiski did for his Edge of the Jedi fan supplement. He made it a little more boss (Damage 7 with Breach 1 for instance), but it's also Rarity 10 and was priced based upon the EotE Beta priced update for the lightsaber (50K credits instead of the 10K credits listed in the core rulebook).

I didn't even know that supplement. I'll have to look it up to get some extra ideas.

Force Powers have been a challenge for me to tweak, and my "Attack" powers for my Phantasy Star Hack (Zonde/Lightning, Barta/Ice and Foie/Fire) were pretty close to what you wrote for Injure. I'll probably add my status effects (like a Burn or a setback due to ice), but otherwise we were pretty close.

Same with healing. I don't know about you, but I was always debating with making it an upgrade for Wounds, as well as if there should be a way to heal multiple targets (especially since we see that occurring in Legacy, with Cade healing himself and Azlyn from the Rakghoul plague).

As for the Lightfoil, I remember we had a conversation about that in a thread I started on the Tapani Sector. My approach had lower Pierce and Crit, but otherwise was identical.

Here's a random query about this, though: what inspired the smaller powers, and are there more that you have been considering?

Here's a random query about this, though: what inspired the smaller powers, and are there more that you have been considering?

As for what inspired them, I initially wanted to add some of the lesser "utility" effects that Force-users had available to them in both Saga Edition (as part of the general Use the Force skill) and could be taken in D6 as well. I also didn't want to create a generic "catch all" power that was nothing but Control Upgrades to get effects that were otherwise unrelated.

The original thought was "everyone with Force Rating 1 gets these for free!" but that got discarded fairly early in the process, as like the FFG design team I also wanted to avoid the recurring issue of "Force-users = teh awesome!" that prior Star Wars RPGs had. I could have made these talents, but that carried the problem of tying what has been generally shown as "commonly known abilities of all Force-users" to specific careers. To say nothing of running out of real estate in my custom Force-sensitive specs, especially as I wanted to try and keep the plethora of new talents to a minimum when and where I could (though I knew from Day One that the Jedi Trainee/Learner/Initiate was going to have the most new talents anyway).

So, as a comprise I opted to go the route of "minor powers." They're available to anyone that meets the requirements (most of which are pretty easy to acquire, though it does add an extra "hidden cost" to the minor power) regardless of how they came to learn to use the Force. So like a regular Force Power, anyone can learn them, be that person a self-taught Exile, a self-reliant Emergent, a Jedi trainee, or a disciple of a dark side cult.

As for new additions... nothing currently is in the works. With the knowledge that the Force & Destiny Beta will be released in less than a year, I'm hesitant to create pages upon pages of new material that may well be obsolete come August 2014. While I knew that was going to be a factor when I first started working on what evolved into Ways of the Force, there's a difference between "well, it's only 2012 and Force & Destiny isn't scheduled for another three years" to "man, it's only a matter of months before I've got the Force & Destiny Beta in my hands." And once Force & Destiny does get released, I suspect a lot of folks are going to prefer to use that material instead of mine, which I'm 100% cool with (I'll likely do the same myself) but also cuts into the incentive to create new material that may very well never see use at gaming table.

A bit of a long-winded answer, but I hope it's a suitable answer.