Meh, I think that's just too overly complicated. I like Dono's talent a bit more than that, and I still think that's a bit more complicated than it needs to be, though it does put the action in the player's hands. That is one thing I do like about it.

However, my solution is simple, and still puts the decision in the player's hand, if not the rolling itself. They still get to spend that Despair that my enemies roll when they attacked them. If they want to deflect the shot, that's an option. But, if they'd rather him drop his weapon or run out of ammo instead, they could do that. It is just a simple and effective option that I'm probably going to opt to use, over a more complicated solution like the one that you propose.

The problem with a retaliatory blaster deflect is that you either add an extra roll to see if the returned bolt hits or allow it to hit automatically ignoring the targets defense. Making it a player attack action puts the option directly in the players hands without adding extra rolls or bypassing defense.

You don't get much more "in the players hands" than giving them the choice between hitting with their LS or redirecting a bolt.

Believe me, I looked at and tried a bunch of different options, so none of what you've suggested is new.

Triggered on Despair had mixed results, mostly as I've played sessions (actual games and stress tests) where out of dozens of rolls, not a single Despair was to be seen, and one of these was a stress test with a bunch of different bad guys shooting at a Jedi with Deflect Blasters, and not a single Despair was seen out of dozens upon dozens of attack rolls with multiple Challenge Dice (that's why an earlier version had the redirect trigger on either a Despair or 2 Threat, but that also had the talent provide a lot of difficulty upgrades, and was even more cumbersome to implement). By the same token, I've heard tales from GMs where almost every roll involving a Challenge die came up with a Despair, which meant that in the course of one round, you could have a total neophyte Force-user deflecting several shots in the course of a single round.

Yes, it's a player's choice to spend that Despair to trigger a redirected shot, but they're still at the mercy of the dice, and depending on what careers other than the Force-Sensitive ones they take, they not have very many options to upgrade an attacker's difficulty other than Sense's "danger sense" Control Upgrade, which at best offers two difficulty upgrades. Against a foe at Short Range, that means the difficulty is 1 red and 1 purple, not exactly stellar odds for scoring a Despair. At other ranges, it'd be at least 2 red dice, which offers a slightly better chance of a Despair, but it's still not enough to be something that can be relied upon. And that's the thing... we see trained Jedi are able to reliably redirect blaster fire. And since the Jedi Initiate is somebody that's had Jedi training, it makes sense that it be something the player can reliably accomplish. Hoping the attacker rolls a Despair isn't reliable, and is about on par with hoping the attacker rolls a natural 1 in a d20 game. There's also the issue that the attacker could still score a hit, since Despair isn't an automatic failure, and from whats been shown regarding Jedi and blaster bolt reflection, it's a pretty binary process; either the Jedi deflects the blaster bolt and sends it into another target, or they take the hit

In the D20 Radio Forum thread that I linked to in the credits, the idea of having blaster deflection be the Jedi's turn was also brought up, but there's also the issue that we've seen Jedi attacking in melee and then deflecting/redirecting blaster fire in what would be construed the same combat round. Also, a bit of oddness comes up if the player wants to use a talent they've paid good XP for, but now they can't because the bad guys aren't using blasters, and it's specifically blaster bolts that the Jedi are able to redirect. So letting the Jedi get a ranged attack (that doesn't involve throwing their lightsaber or hurling stuff with the Force) when the bad guys aren't using blasters is kind of a headscratcher. There's also the matter of how much damage should be dealt. Part of the discussion in thread mentioned was where to set the base damage. During the early testing stages, I was looking at either default blaster pistol or heavy blaster pistol (with the option to trigger a critical injury).

As for "in the player's hands," my Deflect Blasters talent already does that, since it's a strictly once per round deal, and so requires the player to consider when it should be used, particularly if facing off against multiple bad guys (which if a GM is following The List as described by GM Chris on the Order 66 podcast, should almost always be the case).

The only way I honestly see 'adding an extra roll' to really be an issue is if there's only one set of dice at the table, requiring the GM and players to share the same dice. Maybe I've just played so many different and far more convoluted RPGs (Rolemaster, GURPs, and Palladium to name a few) that I don't see how a competitive check really makes things that much more difficult. In my blog I did a post discussing Deflect Blasters and it's application, and from the stress tests I've done, the competitive check didn't really make things any more difficult.

All valid points, but I'm still not seeing an issue with using Despair, and I'm still probably going to default to using the Despair style until I see it in action, and unless I'm proven that it doesn't work how I like it to, I'll probably just stick with it. But the talent system that you show is what I'd do otherwise.

Honestly the roughly one minute combat rounds keep throwing me for a loop and I am back and forth on the blaster deflection issue.

If we are stating that combat rounds are about a minute long, and the assumption is people are shooting far more bolts at the Jedi than the actual number of dice that are rolled. Then waiting for a despair to come up could just feel wrong.

there's also the issue that we've seen Jedi attacking in melee and then deflecting/redirecting blaster fire in what would be construed the same combat round.

If each character is only allowed one action per turn how would they be able to make a melee attack and redirect a blaster bolt?

there's also the issue that we've seen Jedi attacking in melee and then deflecting/redirecting blaster fire in what would be construed the same combat round.

If each character is only allowed one action per turn how would they be able to make a melee attack and redirect a blaster bolt?

That's the flaw with your approach, is that you'd prevent the Jedi from being able to make a melee attack during their turn if you required them to spend their Action to make a "redirect shot" attack instead. With combat rounds in EotE not being the "frantic 6 seconds" that d20 uses, but rather being anywhere between 30 seconds to a couple minutes, forcing the Jedi to do one or the other doesn't make sense.

The way I wrote my talent, it's an Out-of-Turn Incidental that occurs on the bad guy's turn during the round. Thus, the Jedi could make a lightsaber attack as their Action during the round, and then later on reflect a blaster shot.

I don't see it as a flaw. Ether the Jedi is in engaged range and dealing maximum damage with their buffed out lightsaber skill or attempting to reach engaged range in which case they are capable of making a less effective range attack without putting their lightsaber down and grabbing a blaster. What else are they going to do if they can't reach their target?

About the deflect blaster: while the current mechanic isn't perfect, I think its by far one of the best solutions out there. My own idea, which isn't original nor "mine", its a conglomerate of ideas I've seen floating about; keep the Despair idea, add in a 2 or 3 Threats option (I'm thinking 3 Threats), and this allows the Jedi to negate 1 hit per turn. If the attack was already a miss, then the shot is redirected back at the attacker, dealing weapon base damage (plus perhaps net amount of failures on the check). It's still limited to once per round, its reactive, depends a tad on luck/fate, and the Force. It is assumed that skill is already included by being trained to use the glowstick, the Force is (in my opinion) needed to redirect and deflect with such reaction.

This is another option, and far from perfect it is.

About building lightsabers: I'm a bit miffed that you haven't continued on the non-talent building lightsaber idea. I like it a lot better than a talent. Even if the talent makes sense. It's just that I'm trying to figure out how one of my players are going to ut together her lightsaber. She has an old one, missing a power crystal... and she has a crystal... now it isn't just to plop it into the lightsaber, so a non-talent approach is what I'm in need of. So I was kind of hoping you'd continue on that. Oh well

So what ability do non force users get to deal damage retaliatory and out of turn? Or is the goal to make jedi gods and everyone else victims who made bad career choices.

Facetiousness aside, I don't see how this (Dono's or other suggestions) makes Jedi Gods.

Still, requiring a Manoeuvre, or perhaps an Action, to have it activated could work. Sure. It would perhaps balance out some stuff, but I'm not really feeling it necessary with a once per turn limitation in place.

but I'm not really feeling it necessary with a once per turn limitation in place.

Then what talent do bounty hunters get to do more than one attack/turn? Or Colonists for that matter?

Well how do they get free upgrades of attacks outside skill ranks? How can they throw people about with a social skill (Discipline) at lower difficulties than normal range attacks? How can they read thoughts? Why don't they get to add the Force die to social checks for additional chances of success?

I see your point, although I don't see that it's necessary, nor that this imbalances the game too much. I haven't tested it, but I assume Dono has and this is what he came up with.

Also, I'd not say its an attack its a reaction to an attack. Anyone can get two attacks per turn by getting the right result on the Critical Injury table.

So Jedi get the potential to make what amounts two attacks every round, but everyone else has to hope that *maybe* they get enough Advantages to make a critical hit and that *maybe* they'll roll that 76-80 on a d100 to get that second attack. What about when the Jedi crits and rolls a 77? Now he gets to make 3 attacks?

But I agree we should stick to the source material. But wait, in the prequals (and it only shows up in the prequals) every Jedi that redirects a bolt and hits an enemy is actively trying to return the attack and because they are not in lightsaber range. Why not follow this example?

Well, Luke does it on Jabba's sail barge, within close combat range, just after and/or before slicing and dicing goons to pieces.

Still, if its a "Big Issue" for you, do something different for your own game, I'm sure no one would mind.

Just watched it and yes your right, learn something new every day thanks for pointing that out.

But he was concentrating on returning the bolt not attacking with his lightsaber so my point is still valid

We'll just have to settle with disagreement here I guess. Remember that a combat round is from 30 seconds to 1 minute (if not even longer) which means he could be both on the defensive deflecting/redirecting and offensive slashing stuff to pieces, in a single round.

Now, as a compromise I guess you could require a manoeuvre and/or perhaps some Strain for having it active. Requiring an Action is a bit much I think, but we obviously disagree on this. OR you could go for it as an Ongoing Effect, requiring a Force Die. Although then we are moving beyond a mere talent imo, and arguably also moving away from the KISS-principle.

Simple is what I'm going for and nothing makes it simpler than making it an attack action with no chance to crit, damage determined by the weapon/GM, and a set range of medium.

There, done. No extra attacks, no extra rolls, and plenty of versitality.

Maybe you missed it Logan, but there was a **** good reason why I included an advisory to warn GMs about including the Jedi Initiate in their games. I've traded thoughts with several that liked WotF, but have no plans to ever permit a player to make use of Jedi Initiate.

You also seem hell bent on overlooking the matter that the Jedi Initiate had to pay XP (20 for the talent itself, plus the XP to move up the spec tree to reach that talent) to get the ability, and that it's not for free.

As for "what does everyone else get?" (a pretty stupid question), there's the fact that it's NOT an automatic "free attack" that you're convinced it is, and that since most EotE games are set in the Rebellion Era, it means that openly brandishing a lightsaber (one of the most illegal weapons in the game outside of disruptors) suddenly makes your character a major target, especially if they're also seen doing "Jedi stuff" like deflecting blaster fire. And if the enemy is good enough in their ranged combat skill (or simply has a good roll), then the Jedi doesn't get this "free attack" as they still get hit. I did a run-thru of how the talent would work in the game, and that's actually assuming a PC with Lightsaber 4 (which is pretty high), Agility 3, and 'danger sense' Control Upgrade for the Sense power.

Out of the various test rolls I made, the first scenario (a minion group), the PC succeeded 7 out of 10 times, with 1 failure and 2 draws (remembering that a draw in this case means NO redirected attack). In the second scenario (crime boss nemesis), he only succeeded 3 out of 10 times (with 4 instances of a draw, which again means NO redirected attack), and in the last one (bounty hunter rival), he only succeeded 5 out of 10 times, with 2 draws and 3 failures. I'd hardly call that "an automatic free attack," and again this is someone with 4 ranks in Lightsaber, and took just over of 180 XP (30 of it coming from his starting XP pool as a player-character) to advance to that point; that's a pretty focused build and something of a one-trick pony.

Saga Edition (one of the best d20 systems out there) took a rather novel idea (for d20 at least) of using the fluff to balance the crunch. And that's even more true in EotE. Force-users are very powerful, especially once they've sunk XP into buying Upgrades and reaching the Force Rating talent... but openly using Force powers is going to get you noticed, and the Empire has a standing bounty on Force-users, particularly if they're Jedi. Consider Ep4, and that it wasn't long before the stormtroopers showed up after Ben broke out his lightsaber, and how eager the bartender was to say "the guy you're looking for is over that way."

There's also the simple fact that as Jegergryte mentioned, Jedi are powerful individuals, and fully capable of doing stuff that normal people can't. Case in point, Luke pretty much soloing the Pit of Carkoon battle. A lone EotE PC trying that would likely get killed, and even Luke had a bit of help (Han took down Fett with a lucky Triumph, Leia strangled Jabba, so forth). As Jeger noted, we constantly see instances of Jedi deflecting and redirecting fire in close-quarters while still attacking, so that right there blows your idea out of the water, especially with combat rounds being longer than the d20 standard of 6 seconds (as discussed previously in the thread).

At this point Logan, I can only conclude that you're being deliberately obtuse simply for the sake of being obtuse. I've explained why I made the choices I did, and why your idea has more holes than a block of swiss cheese both in terms of what we see in the source material and why it falters in terms of game mechanics. You don't want to listen to what I have to say? That's your business, but at this point it's probably best if you take your notions of how blaster deflection should work and start your on thread instead of cluttering up this one.

About building lightsabers: I'm a bit miffed that you haven't continued on the non-talent building lightsaber idea. I like it a lot better than a talent. Even if the talent makes sense. It's just that I'm trying to figure out how one of my players are going to put together her lightsaber. She has an old one, missing a power crystal... and she has a crystal... now it isn't just to plop it into the lightsaber, so a non-talent approach is what I'm in need of. So I was kind of hoping you'd continue on that. Oh well

For your case, since she's just repairing an existing lightsaber and not building one from scratch, I'd just make it a Mechanics roll, probably a Hard difficulty at least, and one that requires at least one rank in the Lightsaber skill (to reflect a basic understanding of how the weapon works) to even make the attempt in the first place. Perhaps you might even allow her to add her Force Dice to the roll, with each Light Side pip providing an additional success to the roll.

Not a bad idea Jerger. I'm probably gonna do something similar, but only allow it to trigger on a despair and a failed check (not if the successes and failures net equal - there has to be excess failures). Then, as you said, extra failures add to the damage that the reflected target takes (though I'm gonna let the FSE pick the target. You could totally redirect it at some other dude that didn't shoot you conceivably.) I'm probably then going to let them use Threats as "advantages" for the purpose of triggering weapon abilities or critical hits, just to add to the hilarity.

but there was a **** good reason why I included an advisory to warn GMs

Wow language! I must have missed the warning that this wasn't a thread about a game

I am not doing this just to generate conflict that's not my thing. Ive done my own play tests and had outstanding results so I was just trying explained my findings. If I didn't like your stuff Dono I would have kept to myself and ignored this thread.

I guess it comes down to how we see the Jedi. In the Pit of Carkoon battle you see a high xp Luke dominate the scene as where I see Han and Luke as having the same xp value and Luke just stomps the extras.

Carry on then. You won't have to worry about me inflicting my ideas upon you any further.

For your case, since she's just repairing an existing lightsaber and not building one from scratch, I'd just make it a Mechanics roll, probably a Hard difficulty at least, and one that requires at least one rank in the Lightsaber skill (to reflect a basic understanding of how the weapon works) to even make the attempt in the first place. Perhaps you might even allow her to add her Force Dice to the roll, with each Light Side pip providing an additional success to the roll.

The only issue with this is: how do you get ranks in the Lighsaber skill without a functioning Lightsaber? How I understand ranks to work in this game means that she can't just waive a stick or the lightsaber hilt around... that just wouldn't do.

Still, thanks for the suggestion, I'll figure something out along these lines.

Not a bad idea Jerger. I'm probably gonna do something similar, but only allow it to trigger on a despair and a failed check (not if the successes and failures net equal - there has to be excess failures). Then, as you said, extra failures add to the damage that the reflected target takes (though I'm gonna let the FSE pick the target. You could totally redirect it at some other dude that didn't shoot you conceivably.) I'm probably then going to let them use Threats as "advantages" for the purpose of triggering weapon abilities or critical hits, just to add to the hilarity.

Interesting. I thought a failure cancelled a success, therefore in effect it was a failure if you produced one of each symbol, a so-called draw.

Still I see you point. I kind of like the option to be able to cancel a successful hit. Being able to hit another target could require excess failures for this approach, a "draw" or simple failure means right back at target. As long as a Despair was produced. Requiring a Despair for this means its going to be a rare event, at least more uncommon than if also allowing 2 or 3 Threats to be used - additional Threats could be used to activate a critical hit. If requiring Despair the user of this ability have to dodge, side-step or have activated the Sense ongoing effect, OR have spent a Destiny point to upgrade the combat check to hit him/her. By allowing to use Threats you allow it to happen without these active.

I actually require the Sense ongoing power to do it, since you need to be using the force to even try to reflect bolts back at people. Other upgrades can increase the chances, but only if you have at least one Sense upgrade.

And I personally like the idea that a cancellation with no net Successes or Failures is neither a success or failure. During combat, you obviously still miss, but during other things (like jumping over a chasm, for example) it could mean the difference between falling 20 feet and catching a rocky outcropping with an Athletics check or automatically catching the edge, but just barely and not enough for you to not be able to pull yourself up without assistance or a **** good Athletics. In this case, I see that as not truly reflecting it back, since it didn't generate enough "Failures" to actually hit back at the target; just to make it not hit either person.