Ok, I've gotten a few play tests under my belt, with this supplement, now. Here are my findings, and what “my group” did, and did not do.

First let me start off by saying the "supplement" was very well constructed. One can tell that a lot of Star Wars love went into this. A lot of thought, etc… I fully applaud the project and outcome.

That said, as a GM, turning my players loose on this, kinda kicked the hornets nest. (Please note, we suspended our real campaign for these tests; I did not let my players run amok in our usual story, I advise other’s to do the same, at least until you get a feel for it).

The first game played, using these supplemental rules, new characters, etc… just basically stress testing this doc. Had a limit of one of the new classes, and the player chose jedi initiate.

It fundamentally changed the focus of the campaign, or EtoEs base setting. The story was much less centered on navigating the outer rim, and much more centered around “protect the jedi”. To that end, the Jedi did end up using his powers in public (because what’s the purpose of having cool powers if you can’t use them?), which directly led to reports to the IMPs and lynch mobs, etc… *Understand, this won’t affect all games, I can’t emphasize this enough. I tend to run mine with an IMP fist as to the logic of things. My group is composed of star wars purists, and they like the challenges of it.

In the setting: The population fears the jedi, as that is what they have been told for the last 20 years…”The jedi caused all this mess”. The population is poor and desperate run by gangs and crime lords (outer rim). I use Mad Max movies as examples of a backdrop, as well as some other movie types showing an oppressed, lawless, society. There is a certain amount of “ghetto” ignorance, to add to the IMP propaganda machine. The rewards (financial) were/are too great to resist for the jedi capture/death. Different games won’t face these issues, as some GMs/groups will disregard the time period and connotations of the lore.

Other notes that came up: how to play a full on jedi in a group composed of scum and villainy. Understandably, the group could be more the Robin Hood types, but the jedi doesn’t see good and bad crime, only crime (coin of phrase, theft wasn’t really a big issue to our jedi). Many times, events of the group, led to either the Jedi turning a blind eye to the happenings (and thus losing experience, though I came up with an “ease of darkside” mechanic that worked to represent their ignoring the code), or the jedi’s moral compass proved too great for the group to consider certain actions. For instance, the Black Sun wanted slaves transported from planet A to planet B, the group wasn’t for slavery but they were broke and obligated to the BS. This put the party in a bind. Long story short they agreed to do it. The jedi had other plans….. The BS is now looking for the group…. In addition to all the other crap they have to worry about. It also knocked out wetwork, and a host of other “scum” underhanded practices.

I couldn’t just have bounties posted, the jedi wanted to know “why?” there was a bounty on the individual. Who wanted them, etc… If they committed a crime then the jedi allowed the group to pursue it, if it was for “questioning” from a hutt cartel, the jedi wouldn’t partake in it, and would threaten to defend the subject of the bounty. This put our bounty hunter is an enormous bind, however all parties agreed that the jedi was doing what a jedi should be doing.

Speaking of obligation, I had a very hard time finding a reasonable obligation that a jedi could stay within code, and be held accountable for. I had to use a local security group, and even that was sketchy.

The second run, the characters were almost the same, but I had two jedi initiates. It’s worth noting that the “force exile” became a non-option in the opinions of my players.

One of the jedi had light saber construction skill, the group came into some money, and BAM, my entire dam group was running around with lightsabers, because arguably the jedi could teach them the simple mechanics of stances, and make the sabers go off brawl, so the other characters could use them and spend the xp to be “trained” users. That didn’t negate all negative effects of being non-force users, but it certainly minimized them. I had to put a stop to this practice, as the game was getting out of hand and the damages the trando marauder was dishing out were “one hit rancor killers” (not really, but huge, so you get the point).

Third game, had a dark side acolyte. That game got very far out of hand, very quickly. She took the Gand subspecies that didn’t have lungs. The first hint of hot and heavy opposition, they encountered, was aboard their freighter. She isolated herself from the rest of the beings and used her lightsaber to “open some windows”, eventually killing everyone on board, including the other characters. She said, “heh, I’m dark side, I’m gonna act like it!” She took some minor damage from vacuum exposure; however she was prepared for it and was able to minimize it. She and the droid character were all that was left for the PCs (group of 6) and the droid managed to hack the cockpit door, they killed the pilot, repressurized, that compartment, and flew to the next space station. End of game. It is worth noting that the dark side class was very easy to integrate into EtoEs current setting. Players didn’t have to address character short comings, or questionable behaviors. Game lasted less then an hour.

That was the last we messed with it, and was this past weekend. The purpose of this write up is in no way meant to bash the supplement, nor its author (D.M.), it is very well done… almost too well. It notes in the supplement that a GM should be wary of what the new material can bring to the table, and it is no lie.

It gave us(myself/my group) a serious glimpse as to why the jedi/sith have been largely ignored in this setting, and the kinds of oomph/drama they supply to the story. I’m afraid for my group to make much use out of it, there would have to be too many GM limiting factors for it to be worth our while, however it does supply me a ton of useable, game balanced info for NPCs.

If you have players that only want to play jedi, then this works great, if you’re trying to get players to realize why jedi might not be the best option for player characters, in this setting, then this works great, as well. If you’re looking to have some lower powered nemesis running around for your party, again great addition. If you just want to give players more options…. IMO/experience it brings way too much baggage with it.

Hope it helps.

Be well,

Reason for edit. I would like to point out that mechanics was never mentioned in this post (another testiment to it's well thoughtout construction), and in fact we never ran into any real issues with them, our issues came from "role playing" from an old school star wars perspective. EU advocates will find a very different outcome.

$hamrock,

Your experiences are exactly why I put the "be **** sure to check with your GM before you take Jedi Initiate or Dark Side Acolyte" for your character. They can have a pretty major impact on the direction of the campaign, and may very well be one the GM doesn't want to deal with.

In regards to the Build Lightsaber talent, the initial version did have a hard cap of a single lightsaber at any given time to prevent just that sort of thing. To be frank, this was something that you as the GM should have stepped in to put a stop to. Also, did these characters really have several weeks of free time to just do nothing? Even with a Force Rating of 2, you're looking at 5 days (one Star Wars week) to construct a lightsaber.

From my own perspective, balancing a Force-user isn't something to be done purely by mechanics, especially in a system that's leaning much more towards the narrative approach to role-playing vs. the tacti-crunch approach favored by the d20 system. I think Saga Edition had the right tact in that they used the fluff of being a Jedi (or even a droid for that matter) to balance out the mechanical benefits of those character types.

It also sounds like your Jedi players were classic instances of "lightsaber syndrome," which is simply playing a Jedi for all the mechanical perks with little to no consideration for the role-playing angles of that character type. As for bounties placed on their heads, I do believe the Empire has a standing 25.000 credit bounty for anyone caught in possession of a ligthsaber with the culprit getting a life sentence at a high-security Imperial prison. Anyone reported (or just suspected) of openly using blatant Force Powers gets an even larger Imperial bounty on their heads, as being a "Jedi" is tantamount to being a war criminal. If a GM's players don't want to accept that being flashy with their lightsaber or powers is going to have consequences, then I suggest that the GM simply not allow their players to choose the Jedi Initiate career at character creation. I'd say a very strong case could be made that Luke Skywalker started out as a F/S Exile, and only picked up a Jedi specialization once he started training with Yoda on Dagobah in ESB.

Now granted, someone that's trying to play a "straight & narrow" Jedi is going to have some moral quandries in a "Scum & Villainy" style of campaign, but I'd consider such a character to be along the lines of Simon Tam from Joss Whedon's Firefly series. He's a moral individual (a doctor) on the run from some powerful figures and has taken haven with criminals and is operating in some fairly lawless regions of that setting. Does Simon wind up doing some "grey" things, particularly to protect his mei-mei? Yes, and a Jedi PC in a similar situation may find themselves having to do the same, having to accept that "allowing lesser evils to take place" is a factor of their lives in the Dark Times and Rebellion Eras, and instead have to settle on doing good when and where they can.

Again looking to Firefly, and the episode "Ariel." Simon Tam convinces the crew to help him sneak his sister into an Alliance Hospital, their promised payment being various pharmacueticals that could be sold for a tidy profit out on the borders. Yet he also stops to help another patient in need, jeopordizing the whole mission, simply becuase he's a doctor and that's what he does, he helps treat the sick and injured. He's even able to rationalize stealing from a hospital in order to pay the crew of Serenity by noting that since it's an Alliance world, those missing supplies can be replaced within hours, while transporting & selling those same supplies to "outer edge" of the 'verse will allow people to have some hope of access to higher grades of medicine than they might otherwise.

But again, the point you mentioned stands, in that if a GM is going allow the Jedi Initiate specialization into one's game, then make sure that the players are actually interested in playing Jedi, and not psuedo-psychic thugs with a fancy laser sword. The WotC RCR supplement "Power of the Jedi" had a great question to be asked of anyone that said "I want to play a Jedi!" It was quite simply "Okay, but take away the lightsaber and the Force, leaving you with a character that lives a semi-ascetic lifestyle and is generally devoted towards helping others and doing good… do you still want to play that character?" If the player's answer is "No way, that sucks!", then they don't have the mental maturity to play an actual Jedi. If their answer is yes, then as a GM you'll probably have better results.

Donovan Morningfire said:

This is simply the greatest thing I have ever read on these forums.

-WJL

As stated, our deal was more a "stress test", really more to answer the question of "why no jedi?", how much do they actually change the outcome of the game and/or the game itself.
I (we) think you're pretty spot on, in how they "should" be represented, and that is why we chose your fan made supplement to represent it. Despite all the endless debates I still had one or two jedi-hold outs, who were undecided in if the game would "feel" like star wars without the jedi, or were just plan "it sucks cause I can't play a jedi". I no longer have those opinions at the table. To that I can't thank you enough. They were killing me, almost faster then their jedi characters killed the RCR campaign we had going.

I wouldn't be suprised if we never had full-on jedi in this game, at least in this time period…. I can see FFG sticking to the "Force Users" description for the last book, representing people/users with a bit less of a code to adhear to, yet a greater mastery of the force. I can also see them sticking to the Warhammer 40K formula of a bounty hunter needing to be level 10, and a soldier needing to be level 5 to party with them.

Anyway, again, great work,

LethalDose said:

Power of the Jedi had a lot of great suggestions and advice on playing an actual Jedi (at least under the Old Jedi Order mindset) that was system neutral. I've played a plethora of Jedi/Force-using PCs under the D6 system, and I learned a few things about how to properly play a Jedi from this book.

$hamrock,

You're welcome. And if you've got any insights or feedback on the mechanic side of things, especially after your stress tests, I'm interested to hear them.

And that is an interesting perspective, that FFG may not every include full-blown Jedi Knights given the time frame. Probably won't go over to well with the "We Want Jedi NOW!" crowd if that does wind up being the case. I do agree that FFG will probably follow a tier module similar to the one used in their WH40K line, at least in regards to regular folks and properly trained Force-users.

Okay, next version is pretty much set. Just want to do a bit of proofing before I post it.

However, one thing I was considering was some complaints about the "Build Lightsaber" talent. Namely, that it requires buying a talent in order to construct said weapon. Now the initial idea was that by requiring the talent, it'd help keep lighstabers a rare thing.

But upon further reflection, I'm wondering if maybe I should remove the talent, and simply add a page to the equipment section (something entirely new) that moves the lightsaber build rules there, but with certain requirements about building a bonafide lightsaber. Big requirements I'm thinking are as follows:

- Lightsaber as a career skill (so it's still predominately a Jedi thing)
- At least 2 ranks in the Lightsaber skill
- At least 2 ranks in Discipline (from what the EU has shown, a Jedi needs to be pretty focused in order to properly assemble a lightsaber)

- There would still be the "7 days less Force Rating" time requirement and the parts cost; novice Force-users shouldn't be able to build a lightsaber in a couple of days, but an accomplished Jedi shouldn't have to spend an entire week either.

By no longer making it a dedicated talent, it also addresses the concerns of "if it's a talent, shouldn't I get some kind of kicker too?" I might make a "Personalized Lightaber" talent that provides the Accurate quality, but that'd most likely be a 5th row talent if it's included. And should the means become available for a non-Jedi to make Lightsaber a career skill without taking Jedi Initiate (or any other Jedi-based spec that grants Lightsaber as a bonus career skill), then that means such a person could also build their own lightsaber without having to truly be a Jedi.

Any thoughts or comments on taking this approach?

What about making the Build Lightsaber a die-pool roll under GM supervision, successes lessen time while failures add to it, advantages and threats could cause some unique pluses or minus, and triumphs could mean lessened time with something really nice while a despair costs a loss of all materials and some other nasty stuff (strain or perhaps even a critical hit roll because of the power supply and crystal and all that blowing up in your face?)

E

What about making the Build Lightsaber a die-pool roll under GM supervision, successes lessen time while failures add to it, advantages and threats could cause some unique pluses or minus, and triumphs could mean lessened time with something really nice while a despair costs a loss of all materials and some other nasty stuff (strain or perhaps even a critical hit roll because of the power supply and crystal and all that blowing up in your face?)

E

I'd much rather avoid excessive dice rolling, especially when it doesn't add anything to the overall story. D20 may be all over adding unnecessary and otherwise superfluous dice rolls, but FFG's design philosophy certainly seems to be more of "does the roll serve a purpose for the story?"

I like the 7 less Force rating idea - its reminiscent of the Passive Checks optional rule on page 322.

EDIT: I'd also consider letting a Knowledge: Lore of rank 4 or 5 function as a substitute for lightsaber as a career skill, but that's me and for my game, I don't foresee my player taking or gaining access to the Jedi Initiate spec before she has all she needs for putting together her lightsaber hilt with her power crystal... for now its only the Lore skill I can use to keep her from putting it together.

I like the 7 less Force rating idea - its reminiscent of the Passive Checks optional rule on page 322.

EDIT: I'd also consider letting a Knowledge: Lore of rank 4 or 5 function as a substitute for lightsaber as a career skill, but that's me and for my game, I don't foresee my player taking or gaining access to the Jedi Initiate spec before she has all she needs for putting together her lightsaber hilt with her power crystal... for now its only the Lore skill I can use to keep her from putting it together.

I thought about adding a rank of Knowledge (Lore) as a requirement, but not all Jedi (Initiates or otherwise) are going to be such devout scholars; since even one rank in a skill represents a hefty amount of training or a lot of innate ability, I figure a lot of Jedi, even from before the Purge, relied on their raw Intellect rather than buying ranks in Lore.

For your game, if you want to allow a certain number of ranks in Lore to be an alternative to the Lightsaber skill ranks, that's certainly cool, and I might include it as a potential option should I opt to break lightsaber construction out into it's own thing.

That's fair.

That's why I would require more ranks in Lore than in the Lightsaber skill, or as a substitute for having it as a career skill - to signify the amount of learning, studying and research put into it. I mean I cannot think of another fitting Knowledge skill.

Okay, newest version is up.

http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/2013/07/ways-of-force-version-103.html

Also updated the link in the initial post.

Decided to stick with Build Lightsaber being a talent to keep it more of a Jedi thing, as being able to obtain a lightsaber at 1/5th the base cost is already a huge benefit and worth the XP cost of a talent.

Major changes are the Healing power (Control Upgrade to heal a critical injury got nerfed a bit as well as being more costly to acquire) and some new gear has been added.

Been taking another look at things, and I'm wondering if maybe I should flip the 3rd Column entries for Build Lightsaber and Lightsaber Defense, much like I had it in some of the earlier versions.

This would put Build Lightsaber in the second row with a 10 XP cost, but it would ultimately be more expensive due to having to loop around through the 3rd talent row, requiring a total XP cost of 55 to acquire instead of 45, but not drastically so.

Anyone have any thoughts or input on this?

The Force Mystic Talent tree is almost exactly how I want my talent tree to look for the character I really want to play. Sadly, that means it's probably (read: definitely) overpowered in comparison to other EotE talent trees. (Also a bit out of place).

Would be great if everyone in your group is running around as force users and you're just using the EotE rules and mechanics as a base for a completely different setting though.

I prefer the more subdued version of the force in the RAW (because I'm a crotchety old fart). I'm really glad they decided to compartmentalize the system into three separate core books. Still, I gotta say this is very good work and very well put together. Being a fan work, I really expected dual wielding double ended Lightsabres and upper tier talents where one becomes a "being of pure Lightsaber". I love being proven wrong, though!

I don't think the imbalance is a complete game breaker, considering the narrative style of play. Even so, if you think non force sensitive players will feel like they are reduced to supporting roles, you could give them a boost with XP, credits, or equipment. I've always liked the notion that the ways of the force (or at least the light side) encouraged a sort of ascetic lifestyle. GMs that wish to include this supplement may want to counterbalance force users with some restrictions (narrative or functional) on ownership, wealth, etc.

The Force Mystic Talent tree is almost exactly how I want my talent tree to look for the character I really want to play. Sadly, that means it's probably (read: definitely) overpowered in comparison to other EotE talent trees. (Also a bit out of place).

Would be great if everyone in your group is running around as force users and you're just using the EotE rules and mechanics as a base for a completely different setting though.

Again, not my cup of tea, but I do think it sucks that you guys have to wait 'till 2015.

I don't mind waiting. I'm playing a Smuggler: Scoundrel, Force Sensitive Jawa. I won't be taking any Force Powers as I have had no training so I use the Force Sensitive Tree more as an enhancement tree: The Force just amplifies my Cunning.

The blaster deflect seems clunky. Is there any way to use only the enemies roll? Using threat or such in the event the attack misses? As it stands now it seems to slow down combat.

The blaster deflect seems clunky. Is there any way to use only the enemies roll? Using threat or such in the event the attack misses? As it stands now it seems to slow down combat.

Actually, it's not as clunky as it might seem, just as the EotE dice system isn't as confusing or unintuitive as the rules description in the corebook make it sound.

I had thought about making it just an opposed check, but as the proficiency/ability dice tend to favor the active roller, that method made it far more likely that the Jedi would succeed, plus the issue of implementing various defensive abilities without either giving the Jedi too many bonuses or nerfing the difficulty so much that it'd border on an automatic success for the Jedi. As a competitive check, it lets the Jedi make use of defensive talents/abilities they've picked up along the way and still lets the attacker's own degree of skill count for something.

The Force Mystic Talent tree is almost exactly how I want my talent tree to look for the character I really want to play. Sadly, that means it's probably (read: definitely) overpowered in comparison to other EotE talent trees. (Also a bit out of place).

Would be great if everyone in your group is running around as force users and you're just using the EotE rules and mechanics as a base for a completely different setting though.

Well, all of these specializations are a step up from the Force-Sensitive Exile, who is a self-taught Force-user. Compare the proficiency of anyone that's been self-taught on a topic to someone that's been properly trained. The person with the proper training is generally more capable, though the self-taught might occasionally come up with novel solutions to a problem simply because they don't know any better.

The F/S Exile has a split focus of "proficient with the Force" and "stay hidden," where the Force Mystic is simply "proficient with the Force" with a dash of "wise sage" thrown in. It'd be like saying the Pilot specialization is overpowered when compared to the Fringer spec in the realm of starship combat. The Fringer is a dabbler when it comes to starships, while the Pilot has made starships their primary focus. Or saying a Marauder is overpowered as a melee combatant in comparison to the Assassin; the Marauder is all about being a melee monster, while the Assassin is split between melee, ranged, and sneaky.

I prefer the more subdued version of the force in the RAW (because I'm a crotchety old fart). I'm really glad they decided to compartmentalize the system into three separate core books. Still, I gotta say this is very good work and very well put together. Being a fan work, I really expected dual wielding double ended Lightsabres and upper tier talents where one becomes a "being of pure Lightsaber". I love being proven wrong, though!

I don't think the imbalance is a complete game breaker, considering the narrative style of play. Even so, if you think non force sensitive players will feel like they are reduced to supporting roles, you could give them a boost with XP, credits, or equipment. I've always liked the notion that the ways of the force (or at least the light side) encouraged a sort of ascetic lifestyle. GMs that wish to include this supplement may want to counterbalance force users with some restrictions (narrative or functional) on ownership, wealth, etc.

Seems quite a few folks expected over-the-top Jedi and Force antics, and given some of the attempts at Jedi careers, probably not surprising. Glad I could subvert that expectation, particularly as I was trying to "stay in the lines" as far as EotE's default era goes (Rebellion Era, not a lot of Force-users). I have started branching out into variant lightsabers as of v1.03, but I'm definitely not going to be trying to replicate all the weird variations that have been seen in the EU.

While putting this document together, I did so with the thought that it's not going to be for everyone, and made sure to note that the Jedi Initiate could be particularly troublesome given it provides relatively cheap access to a lightsaber, though same could be said of Dark Side Acolyte and Force Mystic, particularly if you start stacking all of them (thus my advisory to not let PCs go beyond Force Rating 3 at this point, since I honestly don't think the game is ready to handle the higher degrees of Force-usage at this point in time).

Ultimately, it's an option for folks that want to include more options for Force-users beyond the "self-taught savant" that is the Force Sensitive Exile. Given that these new Force specs still have to split their XP between purchasing skills & talents as well as boosting up their Force powers, I don't see these as being too unbalancing.

Though I know Dono doesn't like my solution, I'm instead allowing Force Users with a lightsaber and the Defensive Sense ongoing power spend enemy despair attacks on them to redirect the blasts to other people, letting them pick who (or, if they want, what) takes the damage.

Though I know Dono doesn't like my solution, I'm instead allowing Force Users with a lightsaber and the Defensive Sense ongoing power spend enemy despair attacks on them to redirect the blasts to other people, letting them pick who (or, if they want, what) takes the damage.

I like that as well, going to have to field test that today.

Yeah, I'm excited to field test it some time too. Obviously it would only work against blasters, and not against things that use gunnery. But that makes it simple and easy.

I'm going to be using all of Dono's Ways of the Force stuff, but I'm going to be replacing the Lightsaber Deflection talent with some other talent. Probably Dodge, which when used in conjunction with that Defensive Sense power, could increase the chances of people rolling Despair.

Ok I played around with some rolls and the reactive actions are iffy so I started thinking to myself why is it added outside the players action?

Here's my fix. Make it an action option for the player with the prerequisite that the player had to be shot at with a blaster weapon prior to their turn. For their action the player may make a medium range attack with the damage profile selected by the GM with no crit or qualities carried over.

You don't have to account for which blaster attack it is as each attack roll represents a number of shots rather than individual bolts and therefore doesn't matter if the player was hit or not. I see no reason to allow crit or weapon qualities as this is a bridgegap action designed to allow a LS wielding character to attack at range until they can close.