Here ye, here ye!

Version 1.02 of my Ways of the Force fan supplement has just been released onto the internet.

You can read the list of updates as well as download the new version from the link to my blog:

http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/2013/05/ways-of-force-v102.html

Quite a few of these changes came from discussions in this thread, so a definite vote of thanks for those who offered their thoughts and advice on what worked and what needed a few tweaks.

WOW!

I really like the changes you've ma…

No, I that's not true.

I FRAKING LOVE THEM!!

I think this new version looks to be a really great supplement and certainly one I would use/allow in my games.

I still think I'd make one small tweak for my games: I remain concerned about the heal power's control upgrade for healing CI's. I would probably rule that the injury is not healed, but the character may ignore the effects of the critical for one day (maybe +1 day/duration upgrade for a LSP) OR the ability would be limited to once per target per week (that would still double the natural healing rate for CIs). This could also get worrisome with the magnitude upgrade.

The whole CI issue is just a touchy subject with me, and I absolutely cannot over-emphasize how little my opinion on the matter has to do with my history with the author of this supplement. Based on the nature and scores of the CIs in the list, I think the designers fully intended the effect of CIs to be cumulative over long periods of time. This design choice allows for (or straight up requires) some real strategic decisions on the part of the players, i.e. the players must choose to risk either time lost or lives lost. Because I think this was a concious design choice for this narrative system, I get very nervous about mechanics that may subvert how frequently CI's are healed.

Anyway, great changes!

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Thanks.

About Critical Injury and their recovery, I can see your point. As I've mentioned in the past, I personally don't agree with how the designers set up the rules for recovering from a Critical Injury sans Bacta, so I can't fault you for not agreeing with my choice to include a "magical recovery" option for those kinds of injuries.

Well, finally I decided to start including the Force in my games so I read the rules and I also went through your document. I like somehow what you have done, but I am not sure I would feel comfortable with it as it is. To use it in my games I think I would need to modify some things to fit my vision of the Star Wars universe.

For this reason, I would like to ask you a few questions, to understand a bit more what you have wanted to do.

-In your mind, what is a Dark side Acolyte? It sounds to me from its name that it is suposed to be a Dark Side oriented character, evil or at least selfish enough as to not mind harming others to reach his goals, but on the other hand there is nothing in the rules (like in the talent tree) that points towards it. Talents like Path to the Dark Side or Dark Side Adept do not push the character towards the dark side, and can be equally suitable for a Jedi in my opinion.

-Did you make this especializations with the idea that they are totally compatible? For example in your games can a PC has the Jedi Initiate and the Dark side Acolyte at the same time?

-Having in mind table 8-1: Force raitings from the Beta book, something that doesn't fit with my idea of the SW universe is the fact that you can rise your Force raiting above 2 without a master or NPC training/ guiding the PC. What was your idea on this? Related to this, it is suposed that the Jedi Initiate has to have a master? or can he/she just be a Jedi Initiate without a master? The same goes for the Dark Side Acolyte.

-If I would use these talent trees, I will probably change the names as not to link them to good (light side of the force) or bad (dark side of the force). Mainly because I am not sure that all Jedi have to be always experts with the Light saber while Sith have to be always proficient with force powers. In my mind this should depen mainly on what aspects the character focused more during his training. I will like to leave this more open in my games.

-One more thought. I think I have a more restricted vision of the Force user talent trees. While I see how a Jedi Initiate can also be a mercenary or a pilot or what ever. It is hard for me to visualize how a PC can be a Force Exile and a Jedi Initiate at the same time, or any combination of two or three talent trees. In that sense, in my mind I would feel more confortable if the talent trees would be exclusive. For example you can start as a Force Exile or Mystic and then find a master and move towards Jedi initiate.

Finally I am curious to know why you chose these two powers. In your document you write "If you downloaded this supplement in the hopes of finding a full array of Force Powers, …" and then you present two, Heal and Injure. Well I see Injure as a very iconic power in the SW univers, but Heal…. well I am not sure if it appears in any of the movies. There are may be other powers which are more iconic like reading the future which is commented by Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn during the movies, or Force Leap could have been fleshed into a Force power more in the direction of increasing the physical capabilities of the Jedi (we have seen them in the movies moving fast, jumping etc…). Or may be some of the powers which are minnor (a good idea by the way) like telepathy could have been fleshed more as to be "full" powers.

All in all, I think you have done a good job. I may use it with some modifications or as a starting point to build my home brewed Jedi document. If you have some time, I would like to hear what you have to say about my comments. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

With regard to these questions; My understanding of the document is that the intention is that unless the GM feels otherwise he should limit a player to two force specialisations. Secondly, the heal power (in other games at least) to my understanding is mainly based on the original movie when Obi Wan leans over Luke after he is attacked by Sand people and seems to conentrate, he then comes around.

Eldath

Yepesnopes,

Thanks for the compliment and the feedback. I'll try to answer this as best I can.

Dark Side Acolyte - Star Wars EU is full of Force-sensitives that have focused their studies of the Force on it's darker aspects and using them to control everything around them. While a F/S Exile could certainly be a dark sider, the Dark Side Acolyte is based on that theory of control, both of others and of the Force, with a few dashes of concealment; after all, it can be easier to control someone if they aren't aware that you're trying to control them. Granted, not all dark siders are cackling evil loons like Palpatine, and some may even try to use the dark side of the Force for beneficial reasons, feeling that the ends justify the means. EotE is about shades of grey, and a Dark Side Acolyte using their ability to dominate and control others for self-perceived beneficial means could be quite interesting in the right group.

The specs I created have the same degree of compatibility as any of the specs that FFG has published. Yes, the mix'n'match nature of how specializations work can lead to some odd results (Bounty Hunter/Gadgeteer with Doctor, Fringer, and Bodyguard specs for instance). As the GM, you're well within your rights to prevent a PC for stacking multiple Force-sensitive specs if you think it's too far out there. In fact, that's why I deliberately added the suggestion that a GM restrict their players to only two Force-sensitive specializations, with one of them being F/S Exile as that spec falls into the realm of 'enitrely self-taught usage of the Force.'

Trying to avoid going above a Force Rating of 3 is again a reason I suggested the cap of two Force-Sensitive specializations. If a GM wants to go above that and let his Force-using PCs have Force Ratings of 4 or 5, that's their call to make, not mine. None of the specs outright require the character to have an instructor, any more than the the official specializations in the core rules require the character to have an instructor to teach them the basics of that new spec. There is a bit of a background assumption that if a PC is starting out with any of these new F/S specs at character creation, then somebody took the time to at least teach them the basics, and a GM is within their rights to forbid a PC from buying any of these after the campaign has started. But again, that's a suggestion, not a hard and fast rule.

The names of specialization trees are just that… names. If you've really got a wild hair up your ass about the names, then certainly change them for your game. I chose the names I did because they fit within a general theme. While most Jedi Initiates are going to have had proper Jedi training and try to follow the Jedi Code, not all of them are going to do so. Anakin is a prime example of someone that was trained as a Jedi but ultimately became one of the major villains of the franchise. And the EU has plenty of Jedi that fell to the dark side, or were dark siders that were "trained in the Jedi Arts."

Again, Force-Sensitive Exile is the default in this system for "self-taught Force-user of no particularly tradition." Luke started out as a F/S Exile that got handed a lightsaber; he didn't really start learning the ways of the Jedi until he met Yoda, so he'd be a prime example of a character with both the F/S Exile and Jedi Initiate specializations.

About Healing and Injure, I felt those were two major things that were missing. As eldath said, Healing (particularly the lower end of the spectrum) is based on what we see Obi-Wan and Palps do to Luke and Anakin in ANH and RotS respectively. Obi-Wan touches an unconsious Luke on the forehead, and Luke wakes up a few seconds later. Palps touches a critically-wounded and possibly dying Anakin in a similar method, like doing just enough to stablize his new apprentice. Injure is a way to cover Force chokes and Force lightning, both pretty iconic bad guy abilities. And if you check the EU, there is a ****-ton more Force powers and effects that I haven't touched on, such as true invisibility, massive illusions, walking through walls, using the Force to commune with machines, tearing holes in the fabric of space & time, transferring one's consciousness to another vessel, running at superhuman speeds… and I honestly don't think those really need to be covered in an EotE game.

As for Force Leap, I tried months ago to make that into a full power, and frankly it felt like a bloated mess, so I opted to keep it a talent, and since that kind of enhanced athleticism tends to be a Jedi trait, it made the most sense to place it within the Jedi Initiate tree. I also didn't want to create a power tree that was nothing more than a collection of Control Upgrades. Telepathy is a maybe as far as making it a full-blown power, but that will be down the road.

Fantastic stuff!

Would you be adverse to posting a link to the document here? My government network prohibits access to blogs/networking sites. Thankfully I can still get on the FFE forums though!

Thanks for all your efforts.

E

Thanks for the detailed answer. It helps me understanding what you had in mind when creating the document.

I will try to introduce a F/S exile character in my games, and if he lives long enough I may use your document for sure. Although I will find different names for the talent tree especializations in order not to refer to Dark or Jedi. I see both talent trees equally valids for Jedis and Siths. Let's the action of the player dictate which title does he deserve

Donovan Morningfire said:

What????

When the SW franchise people started to take mushrooms? Waith! I know, just before they introduced the concept of Midi-chlorians!

Certainly I will keep it less Marvel like.

Cheers,

Yepes

ejacobs said:

I'll shoot you a direct link via PM here. I generally prefer to have the traffic go through my blog. Seeing as how GoogleDocs doesn't provide a means to track how many times a file has been downloaded, the only method I've really got to see what sort of interest this has generated is the number of hits the posts on my blog has gotten.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I actually feel that its kind of a shame this solution was removed from the RAW during the beta phase. I rather liked the 3 spec cap for characters.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

I liked it and I am keeping it in my games. Just to avoid crazy situations with PCs with 5 specializations, where it is impossible to recognize the character anymore.

LethalDose said:

I can see both sides of the argument, especially during the early days of the Beta with the confusion/griping/whining by part of the Beta forumites of the feeling that you'd be wasting valuable XP on "non-permanent" talents when you drop a prior spec for a new one.

Granted, that'd really only come up after extensive game play, even assuming a fairly lucrative 20 XP award per session, as most players are looking to have to spend anywhere between 200 to 300 XP just fo purchase the bulk of the "good talents" in any one given specialization.

That said, in retrospect I do think there was some merit to the idea of a 3 spec cap to cut down on the amount of "spec hopping" that was raised as a concern during the Beta period (mostly to avert folks from simply grapping a spec for additional bonus career skills and the Dedication talent), but maybe the initial implementation wasn't the best means of handling such a thing. But that's a topic for another thread.

if anyone's curious to see what this latest version of my Deflect Blasters talent looks like in action, I posted an article up on my blog discussing it.

http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/2013/05/blaster-deflection-101-for-edge-of.html

It's not the "super awesome defensive ability" that it was previously, which in hindsight is a good thing. What I was aiming for with the Jedi Initiate was someone that at the "height" of their abilities would be roughly on par with an experienced Padawan, and this current version of Deflect Blasters provides a defensive boost with the chance of a counter-attack, but neither of those are a guarenteed thing.

I've been mentally toying with the notion of "advanced" specializations, ones with pre-reqs you have to met before you can purchase them, one of which would be a Jedi Knight type of deal. If I did pursue a "Jedi Knight" type of spec, then I might tweak Deflect Blasters to be a ranked talent, with each additional rank downgrading the Jedi's difficulty on the competitive check by one degree per extra rank. Again, this is just idle speculation on my part, at least for the moment.

Donovan Morningfire said:

+1. Well written blog post.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Werd. On all of it.

-WJL

I have read your Blog about the Defecg Blaster talent. I have a bit of a mixed opinion.

One one hand, it feels "mechanically" right that it is a competitive check, but on the other hand it is at odds with the rest of the EotE mechanics. In EotE, similarly to the Warhammer 3 case, the designers choosed simplicity over "realism" when designing the rules, that is for the good and the bad. In EotE there are no combat competitive checks with the aim to speed up as much as possible the combats.

In that sense I find this talent a bit wierdly placed within the EotE framework. I think an opposed check could have been a better option, since it would, at least, save some time by just having to interprete one dice pool; although again, there are no opposed checks in combat situations in EotE.

As a side note for those who know the EU, is there any precedent of non Jedi characters being able to deflect /redirect blaster fire with a Light saber?

Yepesnopes said:

I had looked at an opposed check very early on, but the problem I kept running into was that once you started applying various defensive upgrades, it got more and more complicated. Who rolls the dice pool, the player being attacked or the GM doing the attack? Too many variables, which in turn leads to added complications.

Frankly, there's really not any "easy" way to implement blaster deflection into this game. My first published attempt tried for "easy" by way of excessive difficulty upgrades, leading it to be too powerful.

I also want this talent to be skill-based, another factor that keeps this from being "easy" to apply. And from what I've seen, adding the occassional competitive check into a combat encounter doesnt' bring the game to a grinding halt, since the Jedi PC is going to have a pretty solid idea of how many proficiency and/or ability dice they're rolling, as well as knowing in advance what the base difficulty is based on range and if the bad guy has anything that upgrades the difficulty of attacks made against them.

One factor I did consider was to not allow any talents the bad guy might have that upgrades the difficulty of attacks targeting them to be applied in this opposed check, leaving the Jedi to simply roll against the base difficulty. Problem was, that started slipping back into the realm of making blaster deflection too much of a sure thing, especially for a highly-skilled Jedi. The sample character I used was pretty darn proficient (4 skill ranks), and if he'd only been rolling against the base difficulty in the 2nd and 3rd examples, he'd have had much better luck in deflecting thos shots.

There's also an official precedent by FFG to avoid "easy" in place of "right/balanced." If you read the way Force Powers worked, especially attacking using Move and the "change thoughts" upgrade of Influence, they were incredibly easy… but they were in no way balanced, as it was possible for a starting PC to dump their initial XP budget into the Move power and be quite capable of obliterating a multiple targets within Medium Range with a single Force Point and a Silhoutte 2 object. Week 2 of the Beta, Force Powers were revamped into a method that wasn't as easy, but was a lot more balanced. Sometimes, you simply have to sacrifice what's easy for what's right/balanced.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Sorry to insist but, do you know if there is any precedent of non Jedi characters being able to deflect /redirect blaster fire with a Light saber?

Cheers,

Yepes

>>>Sorry to insist but, do you know if there is any precedent of non Jedi characters being able to deflect /redirect blaster fire with a Light saber?<<<

General Grievous. At least he can in the lego games. :0)

Yepesnopes said:

Define a "non-Jedi character."

If you mean somebody with no access to the Force, then generally the answer is "no." Video games tend not to count, being in the lowest tiers of Star Wars canon.

If you mean someone that's Force-sensitive but is not a proper member of the Jedi Order, then you've got the Sith (who adapted the lightsaber into their training regimens once they got introduced to it) as well as various Force-sensitives that have had Jedi training (prime example being Asajj Ventress, particularly in her pre-Clone Wars backstory). For a lot of the EU, particularly before the Prequels came out, anyone that was a Force-user and used a lightsaber had some amount of Jedi training. Even afterwards, if a Force-user was proficient with a lightsaber, it was frequently revealed they'd had some amount of Jedi or Sith training.

Yes yes, by Jedi I meant Force sensitive, Force user, or rich in midi-chlorian

I was asking, because another way to build the deflect blaster ablity would be to do it based on Force raiting instead of on the Ligh Saber skill. At the end, I guess that deflect blaster shots is based on high reflexes but it requires being able to predict where a shot that moves at that high of a velocity will land.

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

I had thought about linking blaster deflection to Force Rating, but I felt that Force Rating was already important enough for a Force-using character already with the way Force Powers operate without adding yet another reason for players to want to boost up their Force Rating. Besides, I seem to recall instances in the EU where characters that were considered "average" or even "weak" in the Force were still quite capable of deflecting blaster fire.

And in a way, Force Rating is already linked to Deflect Blasters, as said talent is a Force talent, which per the Beta rules at least requires the person to have a minimum Force Rating of 1 in order to take that talent.

Now, that said, I suppose one alternative option for the competive check is that instead of using Agility or Brawn (whichever one the Lightsaber skill was linked to when purchased) as the governing characteristic, you could instead use Force Rating. So a Jedi Initiate with Deflect Blasters, Lightsaber 3, and Force Rating 1 would be rolling 1 proficiency die and 2 ability dice. The problem I have with that approach is that it puts too much emphasis on raising up one's Force Rating beyond what's already in place (higher Force Rating means greater chance of activating upgrades along with the basic power).

Another alternative idea is dispense with proficiency die upgrades entirely, and have the opposed check be ability dice = Lightsaber skill rank plus Force dice, with each LS Force Point being equal to a success on the roll. This way, there's a bit less of a dependence on Force Rating than the prior method, and thus not quite as much drive to boost up Force Rating as fast as one can. However, given the larger number of Dark Side facings on the Force die, a Jedi Initiate trying to use Deflect Blasters is more likely to get nothing from their Force dice, and also don't have the option of rolling a Triumph, which can be a lot of fun for players as they get to exercise a great deal more narrative control of the encounter than successes or advantages would grant.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't see anything wrong with it, it is natural for Force Rating to be the most important stat for a force user (Jedi, Sith etc…), the same as Brawn is going to be the most important stat to a melee PC since it will rule damage and soak and the amount of yellow dice that can be upgraded into Melee or Brawl.

Said that, these type of things are a mater of taste and this is your document, which first of all must please you.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I like what you say here, specially the first option you mention. I may use it if a force sensitive character gets a lightsabre before 2015

Cheers,

Yepes

Yet one more thing, though it is only second order of magnitude. The rules for the Light saber skill feel ok for low rank Force Users, on the other hand for high ranked force users like a Jedi Knight, in my opinion the skill should rely on Force rating instead of Agility or Srtength, otherwise Jedis like Yoda or Palpatine would be total crapt at it. As I said this is second order and probably it could be covered by a talent in an hipothetical Jedi Knight /Bad ass Sith talent tree.

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

Why?

High-rank Force-users, namely Jedi, are probably going to have plenty of talents from their specialization trees that give them plenty of extra perks regarding lightsaber usage without having to twist the rules that extra step.

Also, I am highly suspicious of any talent that would let a PC swap out a low Characteristic for an extremely high value, especialy for a combat skill. It's the fast-track to recreating the Jedi problem that all the prior editions of Star Wars RPGs had, most especially the D6 version, where Jedi PCs were game-breakers in the extreme given how versatile and powerful the Force was.

Besides, there's already a means for Force-users to use the Force to make themselves more potent fighers… the Row 5 Control Upgrade for the Sense Power, which by the time a PC can acquire it, they'll have the Strength Upgrade, which will enable them to gain two free upgrades to their attack rolls at the cost of one Force die… which for Jedi Masters is an almost paltry cost. Combine that with the Row 2 "danger sense" Control Upgrade, and for the cost of two Force dice (again a paltry cost for a Jedi Master), and you've got a pretty dangerous combatant. So your suggestion of "letting the Force have an effect on combat" has already been implemented in the RAW, and in a much more sensible and balanced method.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Good point, I totally overlook this. Indeed a strong force user already gets some decent upgrades (originated due to beign a powerfull with the force) which makes him a good fighter. Good.

Regarding making Force Users game breakers, I think that is mainly why Jedis will be presented on a different book. It is like the Warhammer 40K series, you cannot put a Spacemarine in Terminator armour in the middle of a Guardsmen power-level-game without totally breaking the game. Similarly, if you mix Jedi Knights with more "earthly" type characters you will inevitably have serious balance issues.

Cheers,

Yepes