Timing of "Cancel the determination of the Challenge"-effects, and definition of "Cancel effects"

By loffenx, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Posted at

EDIT: What was originally intended as a question turned into an argument, but I would very much appreciate if any one could confimr that I have understood the rules correctly.




After re-reading some Quill and Tankards, especially this one (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/index.html/_/game-of-thrones/quill-tankard-regulars-issue-17-r418), me and my play-group has become a little bit confused regarding the timing-strucutre of the Framework Action-window in general and the one in which challenge resuslts and winners in a challenge are determined in particular.




Short version: If I loose an INT challenge, does my opponent get a chance to draw my Burning on the Sand from my hand befiore I get a chance to play it?




Specific version: Player are allowed to trigger save/cancel responses for each of the fourt steps of the Framework Action-Window (FAW) paste from the FAQ below. After step 4, other responses to anything that has happened in the FAW so far can be triggered.




As "Burning on the Sand" and "True Power" include the word cancel in their texts, they are cancel-effects, and can thus be played in repsonse to step one of the FAW, "determine winner of the challenge".






Burning on the Sand




Response: If an opponent would win a challenge against you,cancel the determination of the challenge winner. No one wins the challenge.




True Power


If an opponent would win a ico_power.png challenge against you,cancel the determination of challenge winner. You automatically win the challenge.





FRAMEWORK ACTION




1. Determine winner of challenge




2.Challenge result isimplemented




3.Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded




4.Renown is awarded

Posted at

"Cancel effects" are response effects containing the word "cancel" (and "save effects" are response effects containing the word "save"). Both are triggered during step 2 of whatever effect they're trying to cancel (save from). Each non-constant effect, whether triggered, passive or framework, has its own first 3 steps (1 initiation - 2 save/cancel - 3 resolution).

This means you play Burning on the Sand/Feigned Retreat/Misinformation/True Power during step 2 of the Determine Winner framework, and Red Vengeance (as well as any saves from claim) during step 2 of the Implement Challenge Result framework. Both are before claim is actually fulfilled (since this happens in step 3 of the Implement Challenge Result framework).

Posted at

Alright, thanks for the clarification, Khudzlin!

Posted at

FRAMEWORK ACTION

1. Determine winner of challenge
Step 1 Initiation: Determine Winner of Challenge
Step 2 Save/Cancel: Play Burning on the Sands to cancel determination of winner. Provided this isn't cancelled…
Step 3 Resolution: no winner of the challenge
2.Challenge result isimplemented
Step 1 Initiation: No one won the challenge - so no results
Step 2 Save/Cancel: nothing to cancel/save from (Thought THIS step is where you play Red Vengence to cancel claim had you lost this challenge)
Step 3 Resolution: N/A (This is where claim would resolve)
3.Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded
Step 1 Initiation: No one won the challenge - so no results
Step 2 Save/Cancel: nothing to cancel/save from
Step 3 Resolution: N/A
4.Renown is awarded
Step 1 Initiation: No one won the challenge - so no renown
Step 2 Save/Cancel: nothing to cancel/save from
Step 3 Resolution: N/A
Step 4 Passives: Any passives to things occuring in previous steps, including this passives step. (Such as a character dies for Deadly [becomes moribund if not saved] or Priestess of the Pyre stands as a passive to the Buring on the Sands being played)
Step 5 Responses: Any responses to triggers/effects in previous steps, including this response step. (Such as if a character had died for Deadly then play Blood for Blood to kill an opponent's character [becomes moribund if not saved])
Step 6 Clean up: Any moribund cards leave play
Note that each and every effect that can happen during Step 4 & 5 creates its own Step 1 Initiaiton, Step 2 Save/Cancel, Step 3 Resolution and Step 4 Passives steps. This is important because it is what allows you to save from things like the Deadly keyword.
I'm curious which of the examples in that Quills article caused the confusion. I'm sure they would like to make it as clear and understandable as possible.

Posted at

Passives do not have their passive step. Instead, those are simply resolved later in step 4. Responses have their own passive step, in which only passives initiated by that response resolve (other applicable passives have already been resolved). Also note that save/cancel effects also go through their own steps 1 (initiation), 2 (save/cancel) and 3 (resolution). This means you can cancel a save or another cancel.