seems like they originally intended high skill pilots to 'respond' to low skill pilots movement by letting high skill pilots choose movement AFTER seeing where the low skill pilots moved to. This was imo the hardest adjustment to make when i started playing the game as it seemed to give low skill pilots a distinct advantage allowing them to be used as blockers. i wonder how the game would play if you could choose a manouvre after seeeing low skill pilots move. i dont think it would slow the game down that much. im sure they tested it. im guessing they found it game the high skill pilots too much of an edge.

any thoughts?

Sounds like exactly how it is played now. Higher skill pilots can boost/barrel roll/focus/target lock after seeing what low skill pilots have already done. Low skill pilots may not be able to target lock a high skill pilot in the early turns, but a high skill pilot may be able to target lock that same pilot sending them a missile sammich instead of blaster fire.

the short answer to your question is.. slower.. the game would move So SLOW.. i wouldn't play it because it would be unbearably slow per turn

I like how it is…if the higher skilled guys got to pick their maneuver after seeing where the lower guys were…it would probably make for some boring games.

I can see where they are coming from as getting blocked by big swarms is annoying as you are likely to lose actions because of being in contact. But the way described would alter the game to much.

But I can see a place for either an ability that lets you alter your move, more like the swapping from left to right etc. or a number of ' force points' dependent on pilot skill that let you spend them to alter your move. Thus letting them change the manoeuvre once or twice a game maybe.

Rich J said:

i also have been thining about a new mechanic that 'bends the rules'. somthing like a token that costs squad pts which allows you to play once during the game to reroll a dice or shrug off a damaga card or reroll a missile attack. these could even be keyed to specific pilots like like or vader maybe.

I can agree with the idea the game would be slower that "original way" and probably worse off. The ability of low skill maroons to screw up the galaxy's finest really bothers me, though. Personally I would just change the rules to say you only lose action on collision if you're lower PS than the blocker. You can't honestly tell me, especially remembering we're dealing with abstracted 3D space, that the amateur hour bumbling of Academy Dropout #51 would ever force Han Solo to swerve at the last second and lose his focus or whatever action loss is meant to represent.

If that makes higher skills too much better, no biggie. We're playing a point-cost-balanced game. Nothing ever has to be "unbalanced," because all that needs doing to fix a problem is errata to squad point costs.

Something that would completly change the meta, and it isn't even that hard: actions may be taken after showing the movement dial, but before OR after actually moving the ships. Plunk down two Academy pilots? HA! Barrel roll, blamblamblam.

I've played the game both ways and fined both enjoyable. The written way does seem to give poor pilots a slight advantage with their ability to block better pilots. The other way seems more realistic, with better pilots able to adjust there flight path but It slows the game considerably. One reason I stopped playing WOW was because of having to plot three moves ahead. One mistake could take you right out of the game. In the X-wing campaign I'm currently running I added a Elite Pilot skill called “Fortunes Change” which gives the pilot a one time use ability to change his picked maneuver for another (4 points). Its a one shot get out of jail free card.

It would certainly be different, but IMHO a great deal of the depth of the game comes from trying to predict and react to what your opponent is going to do. If you take away the blind planning and just pick moves when it's your turn to move, the game loses a lot.

The odd disconnect of higher-skill pilots being more susceptible to blocking moves isn't enough to justify that loss.

Buhallin said:

good points.

Buhallin said:

Is it really that odd, though?

If you are trying to predict where your opponent is going to put that Rookie Pilot or Academy Pilot, as you are suppose to, and you are sure that they are going to try for a block then you can throttle back and make them pay with a face full of burning light. Or, throttle forward and spin around them and blast them (and forcing them to spin next turn if they survive). Being able to do that seems far more thematic to me. I frankly find this argument a crutch for bad players, not bad rules design.

And least we forget, dogfighting is one of the most chaotic combat enviroments that exists. Even the most highly skilled pilots will make a mistake. At the very least, they can blast the wingman for the guy they are avoiding (i.e. crashing in to) before they can be blasted themselves. Lossing an action is a small price to pay in my book.

We agree in principle, of course, if not in spirit.

nimdabew said:

I am honestly dying for an ability/upgrade like that. Maybe something like Force Sensitive, that lets you take your action before you move. It would have to cost a lot though.

It would certainly be different, but IMHO a great deal of the depth of the game comes from trying to predict and react to what your opponent is going to do. If you take away the blind planning and just pick moves when it's your turn to move, the game loses a lot.

The odd disconnect of higher-skill pilots being more susceptible to blocking moves isn't enough to justify that loss.

I agree the game would be weaker without simultaneous action selection. That's why I advocate hinging action loss on lower relative skill. You can kill the odd disconnect without hurting the core mind games.

Is it really that odd, though?

…

And least we forget, dogfighting is one of the most chaotic combat enviroments that exists. Even the most highly skilled pilots will make a mistake. At the very least, they can blast the wingman for the guy they are avoiding (i.e. crashing in to) before they can be blasted themselves. Lossing an action is a small price to pay in my book.

It is very odd! We're looking at a "chaotic environment" where fresh-faced Academy Graduate #14 has such perfect command of the field that need never be shaken out of focusing on his shooting / taking evasive maneuvers. Read: he has PS 1, meaning he moves and acts first, period,* giving him flawless ability to select a maneuver that will not cause a collision.

Yet Darth Vader, Darth Friggin' Vader , can commonly be so surprised and unnerved by the actions of #14 that he completely loses his "best starfighter in the galaxy" actions in what I assume is meant to be a mad dash to fly around a stinking mook. Again, this is even in 3D space! With Wings of War/Glory, you can figure, oh, this is based in reality and real atmospheric combat. Yeah, maybe the planes are not so different altitude-wise. But X-Wing is a space-fightin' game based on dramatic fantasy-pulp action movies! Vader might be a kilometer above or below #14 when he passes for all we know! And he's a Big Dang Hero Dramatic Persona, who should feel minimal concern for lesser presences!

The highly skilled pilots can make a mistake. The nobodies can't. That's the problem here.

I'm sorry my nerd rage is showing. This topic and Y-Wings tend to do it.

*Oh, wait, what if someone got critted down to PS 0? Well, that doesn't help things a bit. Now a ship that has been expressly crippled by damage gains a preternatural ability to disrupt enemy actions and masterfully weave through the fray. Come on, son!

Zithaska said:

While you're right about how you can deal with this, I think the problem is that it's something you as a player have to do and not something that Wedge does. People expect that higher PS should mean pilots who are more capable of avoiding collisions. But they don't - it's all down to you as a player, and if there's an Academy Pilot coming towards you, then your Rookie Pilot is just as good (or bad) at avoiding that collision as your Wedge is.

Personally, it doesn't bother me at all. It may be a bit gamey, but it does help to balance high-PS pilots by giving a purpose to lower PS, and the pre-planning is such a huge part of the game that removing it would be crippling. But as Klaus so ably shows, there are some people who are driven to rather serious rage by it.

Klaus Kewerkly said:

Two things here. First, it would admitedly be far more realistic if both models lost their action. However, I'm certain there would be far more howling if the rule allowed for you to crash in to someone else and prevent them from taking an action. Regardless, that was not my point. My point was that higher PS models shouldn't get a pass for making a mistake.

Which leads in to my second point, being that I emphatically disagree that moving first is an advantage. As the lower PS model, you have to guess if your opponent is going to go past you and Koigan, throttle back and shoot you first, or make the mistake and crash in to you. So of course you go where they think they are going to crash in to you and hope for the best, or do a Koigan yourself and hope for the best. As the player of the higher PS model, you almost always have the option of just rocketing past the situation in a Koigan and shoot the poor slob anyways. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have options than hopes.

Klaus Kewerkly said:

You mean like when he crashed in to his own wingman in the Death Star trench?

In all seriousness, your point that they could have made two or three different levels to represent this in the game is valid. In fact, I wonder if they meant to by using two clear sticks in the stand, or intend to in the future.

Klaus Kewerkly said:

Well, unless the nobodies crash in to you first, and they lose their action while you keep going unmolested. That's a wash in my book.

In any case, don't apologize for nerdraging. It's a friggin' fan forum, and we are having a pointless discussion on rules design. This is the time and place for it!

Buhallin said:

Wedge is more capable, because he can take the safe option and Koigan or take a Green 1 forward. Or, he can take the risk and move forward more and/or in a direction.

Being more capable shouldn't mean that you can fly your ship anywhere you **** well please without consequences, as the rules are written. It should mean you have more options and less risk than the other guy, as the rules are written.

But we're continuing to agree on the same thing for different reasons!