Okay, that's it. From now on, all PC's will be playing Comrades, not guardsmen. All PC's will be entirely identical, though they can have names at their option. They will get their lasgun and T-shirt, that's it. No weapon specialists, no sergeants, none of that. You earn XP by dying for the Emperor - which of course precludes you spending it, but then you can re-roll another character. With 0 XP. There are weapon specialists and sergeants and commissars and so on, but you, as a player, haven't earned the right to play them, and never will. You should be proud to have your character operate as a human shield for such comparative gods.

And if you don't play it that way, then gosh darn it you just don't get what it means to be in the Imperial Guard.

You sir have completely missed the point of the argument.

Point?! There was a point?

I was un-aware................

You sir have completely missed the point of the argument.

No, you just don't understand the holes in your own. You fundamentally want a game with as little in-game player choice as possible, with the player characters not in control of their own fates, and with no power to change the situation. Whether or not such a setup faithfully represents the Imperial Guard is beside the point, because it makes for a terrible roleplaying game.

You sir have completely missed the point of the argument.

No, you just don't understand the holes in your own. You fundamentally want a game with as little in-game player choice as possible, with the player characters not in control of their own fates, and with no power to change the situation. Whether or not such a setup faithfully represents the Imperial Guard is beside the point, because it makes for a terrible roleplaying game.

That is not what I said, What I said was that these classes don't fit into the role the players should be taking. According to the backround there is no need for multiple specialties such as Commissar, ratling, ogryn, techpriest, preist, and psyker to be attached to a single squad unless they are a command squad (which they are not unless you choose to make it like this). I believe the players should have to work their way up the ranks, they start out as a weapon specialist/heavy weapons/sergeant/operator/medic (one of the types of guardsmen who are usually found in an infantry squad) and work their way up from there. Yes maybe they can have a psyker or a priest, maybe even a stormtrooper if they are lucky but an Rp about the Imperial guard should focus on the core of the imperial guard.

As for not being in control of their own fates, generally they are not. They are guardsmen thrown into a battle and told who to shoot at, all they can do is try to survive and make it to the objective alive.

Whether or not it faithfully represents the guard is not besides the point, it is the point. it is the point I have been trying to make all along, it doesn't really represent the core of the guard fighting in massed battles (which I like the new formation rules because they will help me do exactly that).

This is what I have been saying the whole time, an RPG about the Imperial guard should focus on the core elements of the imperial guard, in this case the lowly infantry squad, not the specially trained upper echelons of the guard or the abhumans detachments assigned to them.

This is what I have been saying the whole time, an RPG about the Imperial guard should focus on the core elements of the imperial guard, in this case the lowly infantry squad, not the specially trained upper echelons of the guard or the abhumans detachments assigned to them.

That is certainly one way to play Only War and it is a way supported by the game. However, it is not the only way to play Only War and certainly not a way that everyone would enjoy, therefore the game also supports other options, like "special forces" missions and command squads with support characters. In the end, to serve the interests and desires of all players, the games designers included all the various options of types of characters found within the Imperial Guard (with the exception of Rough Riders, who got included in Hammer of the Emperor).

While such a broad base may not be the way you want to run your games, far more players would have screamed bloody murder if they had not had the option to play Commissars or Psykers. There is nothing at all preventing you from telling players they can only choose from Guardsman specialties. That's what I do. There is nothing at all preventing you from running mission based on the lives of a lowly infantry squad. But likewise there is nothing preventing a different group of players from playing a special forces team of Support specialists. What I fail to understand is why you see that as a problem, when it doesn't negatively impact your ability to play the game you want to play.

As for not being in control of their own fates, generally they are not. They are guardsmen thrown into a battle and told who to shoot at, all they can do is try to survive and make it to the objective alive.

Whether or not it faithfully represents the guard is not besides the point, it is the point. it is the point I have been trying to make all along, it doesn't really represent the core of the guard fighting in massed battles (which I like the new formation rules because they will help me do exactly that).

This is what I have been saying the whole time, an RPG about the Imperial guard should focus on the core elements of the imperial guard, in this case the lowly infantry squad, not the specially trained upper echelons of the guard or the abhumans detachments assigned to them.

First of all, your model of what the Imperial Guard is is not exactly universal to all portrayals of the Imperial Guard. Catachan regiments, for example, are generally not run according to WWII Russian tactics, and they have the tendency to frag commissars if they start bossing them around too much or stealing the credit. The fact that you've swept regiments like that under the rug tells me that you're not so much interested in following the fluff as creating as deprotagonizing of a game as possible, with the idea that it's the 'right' way to play. Your viewpoint of what the Imperial Guard is and what it does is both not inclusive of the way guard regiments are portrayed and inimical to enjoyable roleplaying.

Should be played? Wow. Maybe i should read the part of the fluff about regiments from medieval worlds being sent in with platearmour and broadswords or barbarians with bows and poiny sticks and go with that. I COULD, it would be okay fluffwise and even fun for awhile.

But you know what? I'll rather GM the squad of deathworlders with a commissar (they had an important mission), ogryn, priest (his reason for being there they're beginning to realise), heavy gunner who cried because his gun wouldn't fire and having fun doing so. 40k lore is deliberatly flexible to allow ALOT of leeway to GM's to do stuff yet still keep it true to the overall theme.

The universe is a vast and varied place, and regiments are equally varied. In fact, "regiments" are as big and organized in such a way as the storyteller wants them to be. Even commissars will vary, just look at the commissars serving with krieg regiments...

As for not being in control of their own fates, generally they are not. They are guardsmen thrown into a battle and told who to shoot at, all they can do is try to survive and make it to the objective alive.

Whether or not it faithfully represents the guard is not besides the point, it is the point. it is the point I have been trying to make all along, it doesn't really represent the core of the guard fighting in massed battles (which I like the new formation rules because they will help me do exactly that).

This is what I have been saying the whole time, an RPG about the Imperial guard should focus on the core elements of the imperial guard, in this case the lowly infantry squad, not the specially trained upper echelons of the guard or the abhumans detachments assigned to them.

First of all, your model of what the Imperial Guard is is not exactly universal to all portrayals of the Imperial Guard. Catachan regiments, for example, are generally not run according to WWII Russian tactics, and they have the tendency to frag commissars if they start bossing them around too much or stealing the credit. The fact that you've swept regiments like that under the rug tells me that you're not so much interested in following the fluff as creating as deprotagonizing of a game as possible, with the idea that it's the 'right' way to play. Your viewpoint of what the Imperial Guard is and what it does is both not inclusive of the way guard regiments are portrayed and inimical to enjoyable roleplaying.

This is not by any stretch the only way that Only War should be played, nor am I saying that it is. and your right the missions assigned largely should be based on the regiments that people play as. But the vast majority of the guard is cannon fodder, while it is nice to have a squad of specialists who are sneaking through some tunnel/forest/jungle/dropping in from the sky, for most regiments it is not like that. Most regiments charge directly at the enemy fortifications over miles of bunkers, trenches, and razorwire. I think having the players trying to survive a massed infantry charge through a killing ground is more exciting then sneaking through to complete some mission that has been repeated since the days of D&D.

My point is that players should be playing as grunts, not as upper echelon soldiers. For the most part, their commanders will send them into hell with a flashlight.

My point is that players should be playing as grunts, not as upper echelon soldiers. For the most part, their commanders will send them into hell with a flashlight.

And it's exactly this that I'm saying is incorrect. Assuming that by 'upper echelon' you mean 'elite' and not 'command level,' then I have to basically disagree with you. If you want depressing ostfront-style campaigns, than choose Death Korps for the regiment your PCs will be playing. But if you say that the Imperial Guard is supposed to be about that sort of play, exclusively, than the Imperial Guard is not the right choice for a roleplaying game. Remember, most of what you do in any military is sit around waiting, but we don't roleplay through that because **** is boring and not fun. If most of a regiment is just nameless conscripts thrown into a meat grinder with no ability to make choices, then we don't play that part of the regiment, because it's unfun, unless you're the kind of GM whose fun is dependent on making things unfun for everyone else that the table.

My point is that players should be playing as grunts, not as upper echelon soldiers. For the most part, their commanders will send them into hell with a flashlight.

And it's exactly this that I'm saying is incorrect. Assuming that by 'upper echelon' you mean 'elite' and not 'command level,' then I have to basically disagree with you. If you want depressing ostfront-style campaigns, than choose Death Korps for the regiment your PCs will be playing. But if you say that the Imperial Guard is supposed to be about that sort of play, exclusively, than the Imperial Guard is not the right choice for a roleplaying game. Remember, most of what you do in any military is sit around waiting, but we don't roleplay through that because **** is boring and not fun. If most of a regiment is just nameless conscripts thrown into a meat grinder with no ability to make choices, then we don't play that part of the regiment, because it's unfun, unless you're the kind of GM whose fun is dependent on making things unfun for everyone else that the table.

You still don`t seem to understand, yes being thrown into a meat grinder isn't fun when you kill off Player characters but the way you see it is that I am trying to kill them off. The meat-grinder situation is just a scenario like anything else in this game, most of the fighting is just background. You seem to be under the impression that I am throwing them at a wall of guns by themselves and saying "good luck". A massed infantry charge of thousands means that very little of the fire will come the PC's way, little enough that it isn't lethal enough to kill them but still gives them the feeling they are in danger.

In addition to this I would counter that the time between battles and what drives the story is more fun then the combat. Yes it is good to get your characters into the thick of it but the down time lying in that trench or bunker waiting for the enemy to come to them is where most of the story takes place and we see character development, maybe the chronic thief in the group has stolen some extra rations for the squad or maybe everyone is tired of the constant nervous jokes from one the squad members, maybe a commissar decides to hold a random inspection. The point is that if this is not your idea of fun that's fine but this is my opinion that this is what the game should be like. This is the way I play with my group and they seem to enjoy the challenge of not being in the elite for once.

If you want to play a game where you are an elite soldier Deathwatch is pretty fun but this is the imperial guard where your commanders really don't care about you and if you die it will be forgotten and unmourned on the battlefield (unless you are playing that elite regiment like the Catachans where they look after their own). This is the way my group likes to play, I'm sorry if it is unfun for you but you aren`t playing my campaign so I really don`t see the problem.

This is the way my group likes to play, I'm sorry if it is unfun for you but you aren`t playing my campaign so I really don`t see the problem.

The problem is, you keep saying that your way is the way the whole game should be. It isn't. It's fine if you want to play it that way, but it's equally fine for other people to play their way. You aren't arguing that your game should be run the way your game is run. You're arguing that everyone's game should be run the way your game is run. That makes it a problem for the rest of us.

This is the way my group likes to play, I'm sorry if it is unfun for you but you aren`t playing my campaign so I really don`t see the problem.

The problem is, you keep saying that your way is the way the whole game should be. It isn't. It's fine if you want to play it that way, but it's equally fine for other people to play their way. You aren't arguing that your game should be run the way your game is run. You're arguing that everyone's game should be run the way your game is run. That makes it a problem for the rest of us.

If you actually read what I am saying you will realize that this is not what I said at all. I am saying that yes there are many ways that this can be played but it only seems to be focused on the elite of the imperial guard which is like playing every other RPG out there where you play as heroes or the elite, not common men thrown into deadly situations which is what the imperial guard should be. I'm not saying you need to play this way I am just saying that FF missed a great opportunity to create a game based on the common Guardsman and instead focuses on the aspects of the guard that are more elite.

What annoys me is that while it is a great game, it takes a lot of work to make it something more than squad level combat on top of the amount of work it already takes to organize a game (they did add some nice options with the formation rules though). If you want to play as a common guardsman like most of the imperial guard actually is there is very little room to play the kind of massive scale battles that the guard is known for.

I never said that you should play my way or it is superior to anyone else's way but when think of the imperial guard I think of massive battles where thousands die in an afternoon, I just would like to see more of this included in the game rather than the same skirmish combat we see in every other RPG out there.

Maybe it's not your thing but I think its fun to play the common man in a galaxy of horrors just doing what they can to get back alive.

Maybe it's not your thing but I think its fun to play the common man in a galaxy of horrors just doing what they can to get back alive.

Just like to point out, (mostly as I am feeling bored & as I like being annoying & generally irritating..it's a gift.), but your not the common man.

the Imperial Guard, fluff wise, fall mostly into 2 catagories:- the very very best a word has to offer; or the absolute scum that their world has no desire to deal with any more so ships them off to die else where.

Owt senct ym;

P.S: My opinion is the only one that matters & everone else is wrong! so there! ney-ney..

Just like to point out, (mostly as I am feeling bored & as I like being annoying & generally irritating..it's a gift.), but your not the common man.

And now you have reached my argument, you don't play as the common guardsmen even though that is what the guard is all about. Ordinary unaugmented men and women who fight against the horrors of the galaxy for the love of the emperor, that is the majority of the Imperial guard.

The guard is not just made up of the very best soldier of a world or the very worst from some penal battalion though there are some who come from there. The majority of the guard are normal citizens who volunteer or a conscripted to fight. the two categories you mention are just two extremes of what the guard is, not the guard as a whole.

My point has always been that an RPG about the Imperial guard should have focused on the ordinary guardsmen with options to play as specialists or penal scum, not focus on the specialists with the average guardsman only having a very small role in the book. Maybe it's just me but I think they missed that opportunity to really show how desperate the lives of guardsmen are.

They didn't miss the chance, though, which is what the other side's point has always been. The book's packed with fluff about how awful conditions for guardsmen are, and there's plenty of options to play as a desperate, under-equipped and under-fed squad of troopers continually thrown into the meat grinder. I actually rolled one up the other day because I have too much time on my hands; they're penal legion scum who use ripper guns as favored weapons and specialize in trench actions. I'm still not sure where you're coming from by saying there's a focus on specialists when over half the classes are what you qualify as "standard guardsmen", but from where I'm standing more options is never a bad thing. I know you want the game to focus solely on waves of faceless guardsmen, but I for one would have been extremely disappointed if the book skimped on Commissars, abhumans, and non-trench warfare in favor of that one aspect.

As an aside, as I understand it, much like how different regiments conduct warfare in radically different ways using radically different formations ( ), the recruitment process varies as well (although I would expect many of them take the best of the PDF rather than routinely rounding up manufactorum laborers, which leads to better troopers as well as explaining why the PDF gets its unmentionables handed to it on a fairly constant basis).

Maybe it's just me but I think they missed that opportunity to really show how desperate the lives of guardsmen are.

What exactly do you feel is preventing you from running that game? It seems to me, everything you need is there. There is just more there than just that... but having more options doesn't take away from your ability to run that kind of game you describe. I honestly do not understand what the issue is.

Again, the one consistency between his viewpoints is the minimization of player/character choice. It would make sense that Robomummy would dislike the option for something different, even if any particular group can ignore it.

Again, the one consistency between his viewpoints is the minimization of player/character choice. It would make sense that Robomummy would dislike the option for something different, even if any particular group can ignore it.

Again you seem to miss the point, it's not that I'm against choice, it is that I am against some of the choices they put in. I don't believe there is any reason in Only War that a PC should be playing as a Commissar.

Well, someone needs to get all those faceless soldiers moving across no-man's land...

Again you seem to miss the point, it's not that I'm against choice, it is that I am against some of the choices they put in. I don't believe there is any reason in Only War that a PC should be playing as a Commissar.

Why not? It's a game about the Imperial Guard, and so far we've got rules that let you play, at least loosely, anything from a Colonel on down. And moreover, Commissars are one of the most iconic faces of the Imperial Guard in the 40k universe. Take a look at some of the fan-made memetics that relate to 40k - commissars feature very heavily. Only War doesn't (and shouldn't) be taken to mean that all the PC's are faceless dudes with lasguns. That's what comrades are for - to fill in the slots for characters who are only halfway important. You, of course, think that the PC's should be stuck playing said halfway important faceless dudes with lasguns - and that does not a roleplaying game make.

Just one sentence - Death Korps of Krieg

Just one sentence - Death Korps of Krieg

My group considered them for about 2 seconds. They look cool, they have a cool name and all that but the RP them? No. I'm pretty sure I've stepped in puddles with more character then them.

My main issue with making them very low grunts is mostly their loadout and skillset. It feels likt it would become VERY samey and limited. I get that guardsmen are very similar (my main experience is fighting them on the tabletop, then again my boyz aren't exactly the epitome of diversity) and playing a full on grunt squad? Well, i guess we'll fire our lasguns!

Again, the one consistency between his viewpoints is the minimization of player/character choice. It would make sense that Robomummy would dislike the option for something different, even if any particular group can ignore it.

Again you seem to miss the point, it's not that I'm against choice, it is that I am against some of the choices they put in. I don't believe there is any reason in Only War that a PC should be playing as a Commissar.

Again, there is nothing stopping you from telling your players that they cannot play Commissars or any Support Specialists. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the rules as an option for other groups who do want to play them. Again I ask, what is the issue?

Just one sentence - Death Korps of Krieg

My group considered them for about 2 seconds. They look cool, they have a cool name and all that but the RP them? No. I'm pretty sure I've stepped in puddles with more character then them.

My main issue with making them very low grunts is mostly their loadout and skillset. It feels likt it would become VERY samey and limited. I get that guardsmen are very similar (my main experience is fighting them on the tabletop, then again my boyz aren't exactly the epitome of diversity) and playing a full on grunt squad? Well, i guess we'll fire our lasguns!

Just wanted to point that they seem most likely candidates for group to play version of Only War with PC's being dime a dozen people.

They don't have personality, only "We fragged our own planet now we must pay penances."

But still take Valhallans/Steel Legion/Shock Troopers/etc. and have them be lead by Officer who just sees them as numbers to throw against superior numbers again & again without anyway to crawl to higher position (have played those kind of games) my interest drops to zero.

But back to Topic.

COMMISSARS

In my OW Campaign I'm going to make Commissar NPC, who is not constant pain just frequent pain in the players life, who watches after PC's and NPC's moral. When player dies I might allow them to make Cadet Commissar (gonna use ranking found in Lexicanum) who is attachet to PC Squad to see how war is fought and lead by example.

He is answerable to his superior and should player try to over use his Munitorium given Mandate he would be sure as Warp to get Comissariats (read GM's) full wrath over him and sent to Penal Legion.

Towards the end of said Campaign I will give players chance to choose from Guardsmen or Support Specialist but starting was locked to Guardsmen only mode. So Ogryns, Ratlings, Enginseers, Priests, Stormtroopers, Psykers and Commissars will be coming together if players want to make character out of them.

Haters gonna Hate what are you gonna do about it

Again, the one consistency between his viewpoints is the minimization of player/character choice. It would make sense that Robomummy would dislike the option for something different, even if any particular group can ignore it.

Again you seem to miss the point, it's not that I'm against choice, it is that I am against some of the choices they put in. I don't believe there is any reason in Only War that a PC should be playing as a Commissar.

Again, there is nothing stopping you from telling your players that they cannot play Commissars or any Support Specialists. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in the rules as an option for other groups who do want to play them. Again I ask, what is the issue?

There is no issue, that is how I play the game. I am just saying that I understand why they had to put in the upper ranks in the book but I just don't think they fit into what FFG tried to make Only War. It just seems like they took Only War and turned it into a primarily squad based combat with upper echelon specialists who probably wouldn't be in that situation with about 95% of the regiments in the Imperial guard, To me it Just doesn't seem to fit.

As for commissars to me they seem to be more of the background characters that push the players on into the fighting. Now maybe one is attached to the mission to make sure it is completed and that's fine but I don't really see how it fits in as a PC. If a commissar is attached to their squad it really limits the player's options. It become weather I am going to take that hill or get shot in the back. The role of a commissar mostly is to maintain discipline by being more scary then the enemy and when one is in your squad then either you don't last long or the commissar doesn't. It no longer becomes fun when a person is playing as a commissar. Now I know some of you might say what if I played as a reasonable commissar rather than a zealot one? well I believe that that kind of defeats the purpose of a Commissar doesn't it?

The point is that un less you are playing as a commissar and a group of commissariat cadets, commissars should be limited to background NPCs.