I do not force players to play any way, this is the way they choose to play and my problem is the system doesn't support it. Yes you can make something like the last chancers or a group of specialists but there is emphasized to the point where it is difficult to play the way the guard is portrayed in the fluff.

Bull. No one is making one of your players play a Commissar or Ratling or Ogryn. You're just irritated the option is even available, I'm guessing because your players are in fact interested in playing those specialties and you're stuck in the position of having to tell them no.

One should point out that the Commissars goal is the success of missions for the Imperial Guard, which leads to the defense of the Imperium. A Commissar shoots soldiers to ensure the others follow orders, by way of showing that WILL die if they disobey. A Commissar shoots officers to show that incompetent command is not tolerated. Killing a Field Commander is acceptable if they are failing to fulfill the orders of the Imperial Guard. Killing the high command, leading to the loss of the world is just as bad or worse then having the occasional incompetent order. The Commissar had an obligation to protect the Imperium, and he failed, no matter how you justify it. Reporting to higher authorities (and there are ALWAYS higher authorities in the Imperium), and having the offending general removed would be much more prudent. If the general was going to loose the whole world with his orders, then kill him, and promote the next in command. Killing the whole staff is unwarranted, foolish, and detrimental to Imperium as a whole. Frankly, your Commissar is a disgrace to the concept and should be killed by a competent Commissar, who actually knows how to do the job.

The Commissariat is really the NKVD in space. That is its clear inspiration.

Could an NKVD-man just walk up and pop Marshal Zhukov in the head? No. Not without orders. Orders which aren't going to be given because Marshal Zhukov is very important for the war effort.

Marshal Zhukov gives orders that are interpreted as going against High Lords of Terra's command of invading planet at all cost. Commissar can "pop" Bolt in to his head without any consequence.

Marshal Zhukov says it's suicide and he will not give order to attack on well defended complex. Commissar might execute him for cowardliness, again without consequences.

No one in Imperial Guard is Indispensable. Not even High Lords of Terra appointed Warmaster/High Commander/some other fancy title, if he brings Emperors Wrath (read Commissariate) on himself by his own sloppiness.

I do not force players to play any way, this is the way they choose to play and my problem is the system doesn't support it. Yes you can make something like the last chancers or a group of specialists but there is emphasized to the point where it is difficult to play the way the guard is portrayed in the fluff.

Bull. No one is making one of your players play a Commissar or Ratling or Ogryn. You're just irritated the option is even available, I'm guessing because your players are in fact interested in playing those specialties and you're stuck in the position of having to tell them no.

Your guess is wrong, I know why they had to put the options in the book and I understand that, I just don't think they fit into what they claim Only War is supposed to be about. In an army of massed ranks of humanity you are still playing a group of specialists who in almost every other situation would not be fighting together. That's basically what the game comes down to and while that's fine for a few games its the same story with different mission and gets boring. I don't think you should be able to build a squad of guardsmen without a single guardsman in it.

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One should point out that the Commissars goal is the success of missions for the Imperial Guard, which leads to the defense of the Imperium. A Commissar shoots soldiers to ensure the others follow orders, by way of showing that WILL die if they disobey. A Commissar shoots officers to show that incompetent command is not tolerated. Killing a Field Commander is acceptable if they are failing to fulfill the orders of the Imperial Guard. Killing the high command, leading to the loss of the world is just as bad or worse then having the occasional incompetent order. The Commissar had an obligation to protect the Imperium, and he failed, no matter how you justify it. Reporting to higher authorities (and there are ALWAYS higher authorities in the Imperium), and having the offending general removed would be much more prudent. If the general was going to loose the whole world with his orders, then kill him, and promote the next in command. Killing the whole staff is unwarranted, foolish, and detrimental to Imperium as a whole. Frankly, your Commissar is a disgrace to the concept and should be killed by a competent Commissar, who actually knows how to do the job.

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Yes that is what a commissar is SUPPOSED to do, but the rank leads to the ability to abuse their power to a certain extent. Maybe not quite that far but they can ruin the game for everyone else. This is why if you are going to play a commissar you only let people you trust not to abuse their power play them. Even then it still doesn't seem to fit as I believe you shouldn't be able to create a character above the rank of SGT. (and yes I know commissars don't technically have ranks).

I do not force players to play any way, this is the way they choose to play and my problem is the system doesn't support it. Yes you can make something like the last chancers or a group of specialists but there is emphasized to the point where it is difficult to play the way the guard is portrayed in the fluff.

Bull. No one is making one of your players play a Commissar or Ratling or Ogryn. You're just irritated the option is even available, I'm guessing because your players are in fact interested in playing those specialties and you're stuck in the position of having to tell them no.

Your guess is wrong, I know why they had to put the options in the book and I understand that, I just don't think they fit into what they claim Only War is supposed to be about. In an army of massed ranks of humanity you are still playing a group of specialists who in almost every other situation would not be fighting together. That's basically what the game comes down to and while that's fine for a few games its the same story with different mission and gets boring. I don't think you should be able to build a squad of guardsmen without a single guardsman in it.

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For me, the cool thing about the Imperial Guard is how enormously varied it is. You've got your Mobile Infantry/Colonial Marines-style Cadians fighting alongside Mongols with explosive spears, WWII and WWI trench warfare specialists being forewarned of a big push by Rambo expies with muscles that apparently work like flak armor, penal legions scraped together by uncaring commanders to shove into the meat grinder standing by elite regiments in gene-coded carapace...a military force with countless men and women from a million worlds is going to end up fighting with an unthinkable number of doctrines and strategies, which could even extend to squad makeup. I'm glad the game allows for playing the Commissar and his Ogryn bodyguards as well as a standard infantry squad, or a fireteam assigned to escort a tech-priest as he examines the ruined levels of the underhive for signs of tech-heresy, or an elite stormtrooper-led strike force supporting an armored push through enemy lines, or...

Your guess is wrong, I know why they had to put the options in the book and I understand that, I just don't think they fit into what they claim Only War is supposed to be about. In an army of massed ranks of humanity you are still playing a group of specialists who in almost every other situation would not be fighting together. That's basically what the game comes down to and while that's fine for a few games its the same story with different mission and gets boring. I don't think you should be able to build a squad of guardsmen without a single guardsman in it.

Having the support specialists in the game does not go against 'what they claim Only War is supposed to be about.' The PC's were never supposed to be playing nameless guardsmen, that's what your PC's Comrades are for. And what's this business about not being able to build a squad of guardsmen without a single guardsmen in it? What do you even mean by that? In theory everyone could play support specialties, but you'd still have comrades hanging out with you filling out the numbers.

I mean you can build an entire squad without a normal guardsman (I don't count comrades). Fr example lets say you have a squad with a ratling, ogryn, commissar, preist, psyker. not one of those is a normal guardsmen, I know Only War is not directed as the players playing as faceless guardsmen but that's what they sold it as, personally I like the Idea of faceless guardsmen becoming the heroes and save the day only to have their commanders get the credit and their names never known. the way Only war is set up is that It focuses more on the specialists rather then the faceless guardsman. The classes I think actually fit into this game (or what Fantasy flight describes the game as) are the Heavy weapons specialist, the operator, the medic, the weapon specialist, and the stormtrooper. Again I know hey had to put the other classes in the book but I don't think they fit. They say that the game is based on the massed ranks of the guard but the way it is played is like Dark Heresy, a team of people who are already specialists or important sent into a mission that only they can accomplish.

You count the stormtrooper as fitting into the "faceless guardsman" role, but not the sergeant?

A squad like that's perfectly possible in theory, but I dunno how often you'd run into it. That's like saying you can build an acolyte team of five adepts. Sure, it can happen in theory, and it could have a perfectly legitimate background justification and lead to an interesting story (at least for the gaming group who wants to play with five adepts!), but in practice you're not likely to run into it very often. It's also not like having the other options takes away from the guardsman classes. A squad consisting of a weapons specialist, operator, medic, heavy gunner, and sergeant (or stormtrooper) covers the bases pretty well.

I could see that group you listed acting as a senior officer's advisors-slash-bodyguards, actually. That could be fun.

You count the stormtrooper as fitting into the "faceless guardsman" role, but not the sergeant?

My mistake I forgot to list the Sergeant.

I could see that group you listed acting as a senior officer's advisors-slash-bodyguards, actually. That could be fun.

And that's fine if that's the game you want to play but if you want to play it as guardsmen who are just part of the massed infantry charge and trying to survive in the middle of a warzone then it seems your options are more limited. The way only war is set up is that it focuses more on stuff like Black Ops style missions where your squad is sent alone to kill some target or seize some objective. That's fine for some games but what about the rest of the company that is charging into battle with you? Where is the theme that the guardsmen are just one out of thousands? I personally don't see it in this book and though I like the RPG doesn't really fit into what I think an Imperial Guard RPG should be like without putting a lot more work into writing the campaigns.

Based on both this thread and the 'Hate Ratlings?' one, it sounds to me like the core problem is the 'one-size-fits-all' Regiment rules. They probably should have gone with two organizational options: Standard Regiment and Irregulars. A Standard Regiment would have some character options prohibited (no Orgyns in non-Deathworld units, no Storm Troopers in units without the Grenadier upgrade, etc), with the drawback to loosing some Specialties offset by giving them some kind of bonus for coordinating their actions as a cohesive unit, thus making 'generic' Guardsmen more effective. Irregular units would consist of Specialists from various regiments grouped together to go on Sgt Fury And His Howling Commandos -style special missions; maybe have this kind of units' increased flexibility offset by a penalty to requisition, representing the fact that they operate outside the normal supply chain...?

You count the stormtrooper as fitting into the "faceless guardsman" role, but not the sergeant?

My mistake I forgot to list the Sergeant.

I could see that group you listed acting as a senior officer's advisors-slash-bodyguards, actually. That could be fun.

And that's fine if that's the game you want to play but if you want to play it as guardsmen who are just part of the massed infantry charge and trying to survive in the middle of a warzone then it seems your options are more limited. The way only war is set up is that it focuses more on stuff like Black Ops style missions where your squad is sent alone to kill some target or seize some objective. That's fine for some games but what about the rest of the company that is charging into battle with you? Where is the theme that the guardsmen are just one out of thousands? I personally don't see it in this book and though I like the RPG doesn't really fit into what I think an Imperial Guard RPG should be like without putting a lot more work into writing the campaigns.

Honestly, I see that as more GM work than anything else. You have the squad and some NPCs trying to blow up a bridge or survive repeated airstrikes or hold back a push on their trenches while background mooks are getting cut down by lasgun fire and grenades all around them. It's all down to how you describe the scene. Just have the PCs deal with the immediate threats to their safety while this huge set-piece battle rages in the background. It could honestly work with any of the classes, although yes, specialists could draw a little more focus (although a good sergeant or a stormtrooper is probably going to get nearly as much as a commissar or a priest), and it's not that much extra work. They even showcase that technique at the landing zone in the back-of-the-book adventure and near the end of Eleventh Hour. You've got redshirts being slaughtered left and right by orks in both of those. Sure, the PCs are the ones who secure the objective in both cases, but there's nothing to stop an evilly ambitious officer from grabbing the glory if that's the campaign you want to play.

My point is, any of the classes can work with the specialized elites or faceless hordes theme. That's more down to mission design than character building.

You count the stormtrooper as fitting into the "faceless guardsman" role, but not the sergeant?

My mistake I forgot to list the Sergeant.

I could see that group you listed acting as a senior officer's advisors-slash-bodyguards, actually. That could be fun.

And that's fine if that's the game you want to play but if you want to play it as guardsmen who are just part of the massed infantry charge and trying to survive in the middle of a warzone then it seems your options are more limited. The way only war is set up is that it focuses more on stuff like Black Ops style missions where your squad is sent alone to kill some target or seize some objective. That's fine for some games but what about the rest of the company that is charging into battle with you? Where is the theme that the guardsmen are just one out of thousands? I personally don't see it in this book and though I like the RPG doesn't really fit into what I think an Imperial Guard RPG should be like without putting a lot more work into writing the campaigns.

Honestly, I see that as more GM work than anything else. You have the squad and some NPCs trying to blow up a bridge or survive repeated airstrikes or hold back a push on their trenches while background mooks are getting cut down by lasgun fire and grenades all around them. It's all down to how you describe the scene. Just have the PCs deal with the immediate threats to their safety while this huge set-piece battle rages in the background. It could honestly work with any of the classes, although yes, specialists could draw a little more focus (although a good sergeant or a stormtrooper is probably going to get nearly as much as a commissar or a priest), and it's not that much extra work. They even showcase that technique at the landing zone in the back-of-the-book adventure and near the end of Eleventh Hour. You've got redshirts being slaughtered left and right by orks in both of those. Sure, the PCs are the ones who secure the objective in both cases, but there's nothing to stop an evilly ambitious officer from grabbing the glory if that's the campaign you want to play.

My point is, any of the classes can work with the specialized elites or faceless hordes theme. That's more down to mission design than character building.

that still leaves everything else as background though, that's the problem. The massed infantry and armor part of the Imperial guard is all background stuff and not a main focus of the game. The players should feel like the lives of their characters doesn't matter to their officers but the way the game is set up with them as a specialist unit rather then a normal expendable squad. It just doesn't seem to convey the fact that the players lives are worth less then the equipment they carry.

I'm...not entirely sure where you're coming from. They can easily feel like their officers are uncaring monsters, just have them be part of a massed charge into the meat grinder. Maybe they're bogged down in urban combat and their supply convoy gets raided, so they have to deal with extreme equipment shortages ("One man has the lasgun, the next man has the powerpack! When the man with the lasgun dies..."). I'd go with having the NPC redshirts die off in droves mostly as a background item for ease of bookkeeping, but if you want them all represented on the table that works too, it'll just slow things down. The game is at the squad level, which means that there's going to be plenty of focus on the individual and a tendency to heroics, but that's kinda inherent in the RPG system, isn't it? Not sure, but I think I've heard of a game that's more focused on the 41st Millenium's massed battles, might capture that feel you're looking for a bit easier...

I dunno, maybe we're each losing part of the other's point here, but it really does seem to me like most of your problems could be addressed by tinkering with missions.

I'm...not entirely sure where you're coming from. They can easily feel like their officers are uncaring monsters, just have them be part of a massed charge into the meat grinder. Maybe they're bogged down in urban combat and their supply convoy gets raided, so they have to deal with extreme equipment shortages ("One man has the lasgun, the next man has the powerpack! When the man with the lasgun dies..."). I'd go with having the NPC redshirts die off in droves mostly as a background item for ease of bookkeeping, but if you want them all represented on the table that works too, it'll just slow things down. The game is at the squad level, which means that there's going to be plenty of focus on the individual and a tendency to heroics, but that's kinda inherent in the RPG system, isn't it? Not sure, but I think I've heard of a game that's more focused on the 41st Millenium's massed battles, might capture that feel you're looking for a bit easier...

I dunno, maybe we're each losing part of the other's point here, but it really does seem to me like most of your problems could be addressed by tinkering with missions.

no, you've got it. They can be addressed by altering the missions, my problem is that that shouldn't be the case for the most part. I believe that an RPG about guardsmen should focus on the common guardsman getting thrown into a meat grinder and trying to survive. My problem is that they focus too much on specialists preforming black ops missions which seems like they are just trying to remake Dark Heresy but with guardsmen rather than the Inquisition.

To be fair, there's what, only three published adventures for the system, and two are introductory? Eleventh Hour's pretty meat-grindery, Against the Savages is one part meat grinder to one part advance strike, and Final Testament is...yeah, okay, that one's spec ops after the beginning, I'll give you that one . The ending can get really, really Guardsman dark though, especially if they don't have anyone in authority who likes them. I can see where you get the view, but that's more of a fault with the adventures than the system itself.

Personally I'd say leave it up to the GM and players to decide what sort of game they want to play. A pure guardsmen game can work for those who want to focus on combined operations while allowing speacialists gives the option of a "Dirty Dozen" style game for those who like that sort of thing.

As for a Commissar player causing problems I'd simply take a lesson from Caiphas Cain and point out to them that Commissars who cause problems have a nasty habit of suffering from an accidental friendly fire incident. "Oh dear, your character was out inspecting the sentries and got shot by a jumpy guardsman who mistook him for an Ork. Why don't you roll up a Weapon Speacialist?".

..........As for a Commissar player causing problems I'd simply take a lesson from Caiphas Cain and point out to them that Commissars who cause problems have a nasty habit of suffering from an accidental friendly fire incident. "Oh dear, your character was out inspecting the sentries and got shot by a jumpy guardsman who mistook him for an Ork. Why don't you roll up a Weapon Speacialist?"....

Incident report: Perimeter death of Commissar Garibold Vain-Mallard (DM0011-ZC-0-Q01)

After a thougher investigation, it has been determined that Commissar Vain-Mallard, of the blessed Commissariate, was slain by one of the smaller breeds of green-skins, classified as 'gretchin'; who had found one of the god-Emperor's Guard issue las-rifles, that the Commissar so thoughtfully left lying on the battlefield after another of his enthusiastic excutions, and that creature, the Gretchin, being unholy under the gaze of the throne, defiled the god-Emperor's blessed weapon & killed Commissar Garibold Vain-Mallard,who was so enthusiastic in his duties, by shooting him 57 times in the back. And, not, as has been filithly reported by some less informed members of other regiments, by any duty-sentry of god-Emperor's Imperial Guard . The Emperor protects.

Signed;

Colonel Quentin Munro (CIG-12345-OQX-1111-EE)

Catachan 256th light infantry

Report into Incident CDC-29998-CatDiv-A. ref Commissar G. Vain-Mallard

Lord Commissar;

After strenuous close examination of Incident CDC-29998-CatDiv-A. ref Commissar G. Vain-Mallard, here after mentioned as Perimeter shooting or the incident. This office has come to the conclusion that Colonel Q. Munro (CIG-12345-OQX-1111-EE) has reported factually & truthfully, within the bounds of his uncivilised Catachan education, with regard to the the incident. It is the further conclusion upon the examination of Commissar G. Vain-Mallard's (DM0011-ZC-0-Q01) record of non-lodgement of forms for a period of no less than 22 months terran standard. And with regards to the loss of his most beneficent god-Emperor's equipment; currently worth 142,821.99012 thrones adjusted; that the incident resulting in Commissar G. Vain-Mallard (DM0011-ZC-0-Q01) death be classed as a suicide.

Note: An arrest warrant has been issued for Commissar Garibold Vain-Mallard (DM0011-ZC-0-Q01) due to failure to perform his sacred duties as an officer of the Departmento Munitorium. Specifically; non-lodgement of forms for a period not less than 22 months terran standard explaining the loss of 142,821.99012 thrones worth, adjusted; of his most beneficent god-Emperor's equipment , whilst administering the god-Emperor's righteous judgement .

Summarised;

Adept-Secudus Zoppal Quezwort

Departmento Munitorium

To be fair, there's what, only three published adventures for the system, and two are introductory? Eleventh Hour's pretty meat-grindery, Against the Savages is one part meat grinder to one part advance strike, and Final Testament is...yeah, okay, that one's spec ops after the beginning, I'll give you that one . The ending can get really, really Guardsman dark though, especially if they don't have anyone in authority who likes them. I can see where you get the view, but that's more of a fault with the adventures than the system itself.

I know, It probably just me but It just doesn't feel like how an Imperial Guard RPG should be. I like the game I jus think they missed an opportunity to really show the hopelessness of humanities continued survival from the standpoint of ordinary men and women.

Specifically; non-lodgement of forms for a period not less than 22 months terran standard explaining the loss of 142,821.99012 thrones worth, adjusted; of his most beneficent god-Emperor's equipment , whilst administering the god-Emperor's righteous judgement .

Heresy of the highest sort, undocumented waste of equipment is intolerable in the eyes of our glorious Emperor.

I don't fully understand the problem you have with the system. You seem to be complaining that the game offers you a wide range of choices and represents a full spectrum of the Imperial Guard. I get that you feel that the Imperial Guard RPG should just be regular dudes getting machine gunned, and not the dirty dozen mismatch of characters, but why don't you just tell the players before hand what kind of campaign your going to run? Ultimately its your game, and your the GM, you can tell the players that only non-specialists are allowed, because you want to run a gritty low-level campaign. If they don't like it, then they can run whatever game they want. Furthermore, as the GM, you need to facilitate the fun of all the players. If one is abusing his power, then stop him. Talk to him, kill him (his character I mean ), have a group discussion. If you want a softer approach, then throw hurdles and problems in his way whenever he abuses his power.

no, you've got it. They can be addressed by altering the missions, my problem is that that shouldn't be the case for the most part. I believe that an RPG about guardsmen should focus on the common guardsman getting thrown into a meat grinder and trying to survive. My problem is that they focus too much on specialists preforming black ops missions which seems like they are just trying to remake Dark Heresy but with guardsmen rather than the Inquisition.

I think you're just hitting up against the issue of this is what the majority of roleplayers are used to and interested in. In your average rpg, the characters represent a small unit of misfits performing special tasks. That's true whether your talking D&D or Shadowrun or any other of the host of games sitting on my shelf. I've been running rpgs for decades and I honestly wouldn't even begin to know how to run the kind of game you seem to be describing, much less how to make it remotely interesting for my players and myself. I think a lot of GMs would feel the same. Therefore, in order to sell the product so it appeals to most rpg groups, it has to have that common ground... a small unit of misfits performing special tasks.

That said, there is nothing stopping you from running something different, just like there is nothing stopping you from talking to your players and all agreeing that no one will make a support specialist character. I've restricted support specialist characters to players with more experience the setting (ironically, among my players, only my 8 year old son has the necessary background knowledge to play a commissar... and he has done so perfectly.)

.

no, you've got it. They can be addressed by altering the missions, my problem is that that shouldn't be the case for the most part. I believe that an RPG about guardsmen should focus on the common guardsman getting thrown into a meat grinder and trying to survive. My problem is that they focus too much on specialists preforming black ops missions which seems like they are just trying to remake Dark Heresy but with guardsmen rather than the Inquisition.

I think you're just hitting up against the issue of this is what the majority of roleplayers are used to and interested in. In your average rpg, the characters represent a small unit of misfits performing special tasks. That's true whether your talking D&D or Shadowrun or any other of the host of games sitting on my shelf. I've been running rpgs for decades and I honestly wouldn't even begin to know how to run the kind of game you seem to be describing, much less how to make it remotely interesting for my players and myself. I think a lot of GMs would feel the same. Therefore, in order to sell the product so it appeals to most rpg groups, it has to have that common ground... a small unit of misfits performing special tasks.

This is basically it, I just think they missed a great opportunity. Don't get me wrong I love the games but the small unit of misfits/specialists just doesn't seem to fit in with the Idea of the guard. Of course there are tales of heroism on the battlefield and underdogs saving the day but that is mostly in the midst of hundred kilometer long firing lines and artillery barrages that can flatten cities, not sneaking around to accomplish some goal. Yes that's fine for some missions but when it is most of what the rules are based on it can get pretty annoying and it takes a fir but of work for me as a GM to really make the game like how most of the guard operates (throw men and tanks at them until you make a ramp high enough to get over their walls).

It took a lot of work but I made a mission where the players were valhallans and had to march along as a company across a minefield to clear the way for the tanks behind them, now that kind of thing is where you can show just how worthless your lives in the guard are while at the same time having squad level survival challenges (this may also have some bias since I wrote it).

The point is to me the Only War RPG just seems like they took dark heresy and switched Inquisition with Imperial guard.

The point is to me the Only War RPG just seems like they took dark heresy and switched Inquisition with Imperial guard.

I guess it's a matter of play style, but I have never run Dark Heresy the way I run Only War. The games I've run for Only War have all been short and simple: go here, complete this objective (while dealing with various complications), return to base/hold position until further orders(read: next mission). Nothing at all like a Dark Heresy investigation.

Comissars? As a PC? Not in my game!

My problem isn't that it would be "illogical" or players might abuse their power. I am sure my players could handle playing a Comissar - that's not really the problem (though it might lead to some headaches).

But Comissars for me are meant to feared! At the very least, players should feel uneasy in the presence of Comissars - though barely contained panic might be more appropriate in some situations. That's hard to pull off, when one of the players belongs to the Comissariat and is with the Squad ALL the time.

Okay, that's it. From now on, all PC's will be playing Comrades, not guardsmen. All PC's will be entirely identical, though they can have names at their option. They will get their lasgun and T-shirt, that's it. No weapon specialists, no sergeants, none of that. You earn XP by dying for the Emperor - which of course precludes you spending it, but then you can re-roll another character. With 0 XP. There are weapon specialists and sergeants and commissars and so on, but you, as a player, haven't earned the right to play them, and never will. You should be proud to have your character operate as a human shield for such comparative gods.

And if you don't play it that way, then gosh darn it you just don't get what it means to be in the Imperial Guard.