My brother and i are having a disagreement on something that i would invite outside opinions on.

I only have 1 Firespray. I personally don't have a desire to use more than one Firespray in any of my builds, so one is enough for me. However, there are plenty of builds where i would like to use more than the 2 stealth upgrades that came with my Firespray. My brother feels that it is not "honorable" to use an upgrade unless you have the actual game card, and won't allow copies.

He says it is more strategic that way, you are limited by the number of cards you have. Otherwise you could put a stealth upgrade or similar card on every ship you use.

I argue that if the creators of the game wanted to limit the number of stealth devices i could use, they would have called it a Unique card, like R2D2. The only thing that limits my use of stealth upgrades is the points in my build, and in this case, not wanting to shell out more money for a ship just to get a card or 2.

I understand that for tournaments the copied cards are not acceptable, but do you have any objections to using a copy of a card in friendly gameplay? Am i being unreasonable, or is my brother being a butthead? Thanks in advance for weighing in

The standard rules are that you must have a card for every upgrade. This can be of course waived in friendly games, but therein is your problem. Since all players are not in agreement, I think you should stick to the letter of the law i.e. no card, no upgrade. I would not object personally.

I would have to agree that you need the cards…stealth isn't the win all card many make our out to be.

DoubleNot7 said:

+1

Well i guess this isn't going my way.

Doublenot, can i play with you instead of my stupid brother? :-)

Personally, I don't care if a card is real, photocopied, or only exists on a printed squad list. The only 'real' cards I care about are the damage decks.

While there is the argument that some hypothetical douchebag could use a fake card/printout/etc to cheat at a tourney (which doesn't hold much water, given the relatively small ruleset and the easily verifiable card text), the rule is only there to protect FFG's financial interests. If I ran into someone at a tourney that was using sleeved photocopies, it wouldn't make any difference to me.

The short version is this: as long as you have the right mini and right rules, it doesn't matter to me if you actually own the 'real' card or not.

It sounds like you mostly play Imperial and he mostly plays Rebel? So he's tired of trying to hit ships with 4 agility and definitely doesn't want to face a whole squad of them. In my opinion, that's not a very good reason to say no. Honestly, I think it would be okay to play with proxies at least once so that you can determine whether or not you even like running more than 2 ships with stealth. Also, I think the idea of having to purchase an entire upgrade just for a card like stealth is stupid. I would prefer to see less expensive upgrade packs sold alongside the ship expansions (which can still come with some select upgrades as they do now). I also want a few more stealths and a second gunner but am unwilling to pay another $30 for them. (I also have no real interest in owning a second Firespray.)

Of course, if he allows proxies, make sure that you do too. "Want to fly a fourth X-wing but we only have 3? No problem, just use this empty base with a X-Wing card on it and write down your maneuvers each turn instead of using the dial." If you aren't willing to make deals like that, then my answer would probably change to no.

Ibberben said:

Yeah i told him he could print a Wedge Card and use it if he wants since x-wing expansions are out of stock and we are fairly new to the game, but he won't budge. We even joked about sticking a marshmallow on a stick and calling it an x-wing. Although i think that is way more of a stretch of the rules than making a photo copy of an upgrade card

Amongst my play group we allow most proxies except for the miniatures. If I'm play testing builds I use proxies all the time but when I play for real or in tournaments I have all the regulation equipment required. I just wouldn't want my opponents to feel that I wasn't taking the game as serious as they are.

Clinically speaking, your brother is nuts. ~,~

Only people who spend X amount of money should fly certain squads?!? That has nothing to do with game balance or fairness.

I wouldn't have any trouble using proxies in a friendly game but if the other player doesn't agree I'd go along with that.

I played a couple of friendly games tonight using my opponent's gear, so when I was building my squad he had already used the Shield Upgrades in his own squad. I just said that was cool and used something different.

Personally, In friendly games it's okay if agreed before hand, if you can't agree prior to the game then as per rules it's a no, so your brother would be right to stick to his guns re the rules as written, but that being the case i wouldn't allow other house rules if he wants to try them out…

Actually - I believe this is encouraged by the rulebook itself.

Only using available components is something implemented by the tournament rules meant for tournament play.

Look at the rulebook on page 20 - "Component Limitations"

"Asteroid obstacle tokens, all cards, plastic ships, bases and pegs are limited by the quantities included in this game box. If players run out of any other tokens, they may use a suitable replacement etc…"

Seems to me like the rulebook is perfectly happy letting you proxy whatever components you need that you don't have access to, for casual play. I grant you, it doesn't talk about using a replacement for the cards specifically - but proxying cards when you don't have enough because your components are limited seems in the spirit of this….

Ravncat said:

What you just qouted from the rulebook says litterally the opposite of what you think it says, very clearly infact.

It specifically says that asteroids, all cards , ships, bases, and pegs are limited by the quanities included in the game box. It then goes on to say that you may use a suitible replacement for any other token if needed. Cards are limited, focus/evade/shield tokens can be proxied.

I'm ok with proxies for cards in friendly matches.

But when I'm playing against my kid, we only use the actual cards we have, and I've split everything equally between sides. So if I have 2 stealth cards, we both have 1 available.

It does limit the potential squad building somewhat, but it also makes things interesting as we have to play within our means. It forces some creative squads.

I would think a good compromise with your brother would be to play both ways. Play 10 games limited by the cards, then play 10 games with proxies. Swap back and forth and you both get what you want to some degree.

I would let you proxy, even at a tournament (although obviously you would have to check with the TO). Playing games should not really be about "Well I have everything so I get to stomp you" in my opinion, it should be about player skill. I would much rather lose to you playing the best list you could then win because you are resource constrained. Where is the challenge in winning against you if you are not capable of your best?

For what its worth, I do have 4+ of every small ship and 2+ of both "big" ships , and have been accused of being a "power gamer" =).

I should also echo what others have said that Stealth Device is not as good as it seems at first glance, thus making the entire argument pretty moot. I honestly wouldnt consider running more than a few aside from some very specific lists.

I would recommend you "let" your brother play against you with the 4xRookie with Shield upgrade list and see if he still feels the same way.

jedi moose said:

Re-reading your post and this quote struck me. What exactly is more "honorable" about only using what you have? Its a game, I dont really see how personal honor factors into it. You aren't cheating since if you had the cards you could obviously use them. Frankly, usually when I encounter this argument, it is because the person is just a coward that doesnt want to lose, and thats pathetic. Again, I'd rather lose to you at your best then win with you at anything less. That statement alone sounds more "honorable" than the alternative.

What is more strategic about it? If you are playing a campaign, sure, limit stuff and make it thematic. Theres nothing strategic about "I couldnt afford 3 Firesprays yet, so I guess I can't play the list I want to play".

I have had the same dispute with my brother in fact. I would feel dirty myself to make copies of cards you either don't have at all or even multiple copies of ones you do as you suggest. "Honor" or ethics you might call it, come in to play in whatever you are doing, even if it's a game. The creators meant it to be this way, stick to it and don't bend the rules. Now if you both agree, force be with you. But don't verbally spar with him and make it like he's the "clinically crazy" one. (Which if he has been clinically diagnosed as crazy my apologies but I'm guessing not and RedWides comment was absurd) ScottieATF I couldn't have agreed more, the rulebook says asteroids CARDS pegs etc are LIMITED by the QUANTITIES included and to make proxies of TOKENS. Sounds clear to me. You use what you have and plan out your best build based on that. That's part of the fun and strategy. Now it sounds like everyone here uses proxies so I'm prepared to be blasted by posts, but I'm not going to waiver in my stance.

Have you considered playing a scenario twice? Once with your build, and once without the multiple stealth. It may not solve everything in the long run, but you could at least get a feel for how the ship would perform with different builds…

Lots of great responses. And they all pretty much express the opinions on both sides of our disagreement. I did send the link to this thread to my brother, and based on his response i feel i must clarify a few things.

First he says i may have bent the responses in my favor by my wording of the original post, which is probably true since i am deffinitely not unbiased in my opinion. He clarified his "honor" statement. What he really meant was he would feel like he was cheating to use a copied card or other proxy. Which technically, according to the rule book is true, no proxies. He also wanted to clarify that he never said he won't allow the proxies, he has just been arguing whether it should be allowed. And finally he felt my "butthead" comment was a bit uncalled for. Haha

Let me say that i agree with all of you who say that if he won't agree to it, I can't use proxies. This thread was actually a result of his prompt to me to ask around and see what others feel about the issue. I don't think though that either of us is going to change our minds which means he wins, although he has softened a bit and says i can use proxies if i want, but he won't do it. So i won't do it because then i feel it would be cheating. I feel confident that i can beat him wiithout the extra stealth device, although this applies to more than just that one upgrade card. I think its lame to limit your options on a game like this because of such a silly rule which is clearly placed in the rulebook by the creators to, as one of you put it, protect their financial interest. Its like the Monopoly creators putting in the rulebook "if you run out of little houses you must buy another monopoly boardgame in order to put more on all of your properties". Lame. This is an expensive game to get into, and it seems ridiculous to limit my options by a rule that can be so easily circumvented with a copier and a pair of scissors.

I guess i feel like this: I love baseball. But it think it is unfair that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox (and i am a Red Sox fan) have more money and can often buy the best players, while other teams are limited buy their financial ability. I thnk it is one of the major problems with the game an it limits a teams ability to really be a competitor. Obviously it is possible for poorly funded teams to have a great season and win a world series. But the sheer number of championships that the Yankees have seems to indicate to me that the system is a little flawed. The same could be true of this game, although we are talking 10s of dollars instead of millions.

And i also agree that stealth device isn't as great as many believe. But on the right build it can be usefull on 3+ ships. Anyway, for now i will forego using proxies until ffg releases an uprgrade card expansion pack or until i come into a financial windfall and can buy all the ships i want.

Thanks for indulging me and for all the input.

it sounds like "Master Dolos" could be you bro

Either way it sounds like you two have very different personalities or views and you may want to find someone else to play with who is more laid back. I've played tournaments and friendly games and I find much more enjoyment out of the friendly games where the rule book isn't pulled out to criticize every move. Just my personal opinion.

it sounds like "Master Dolos" could be you bro

Either way it sounds like you two have very different personalities or views and you may want to find someone else to play with who is more laid back. I've played tournaments and friendly games and I find much more enjoyment out of the friendly games where the rule book isn't pulled out to criticize every move. Just my personal opinion.

it sounds like "Master Dolos" could be you bro

Either way it sounds like you two have very different personalities or views and you may want to find someone else to play with who is more laid back. I've played tournaments and friendly games and I find much more enjoyment out of the friendly games where the rule book isn't pulled out to criticize every move. Just my personal opinion.

Ask him.
"Is this about what one can afford to buy with real money? Or is this about what once can field for the points given?"
His way is really about who can afford more stuff. And in a friendly game that is pretty lame. In a tournie I understand FFG's position.

I would not allow proxies in play groups (except for testing once or twice) or tournaments but at home with your brother, why not…

Also, get a 2nd Slave that way your brother has 2 gunners for his 2 Falcons and will mop up your stealth devices so fast it will not even seem worth to have them anymore XD.

The only other reason for proxies is that certain ships are out of stock for months now and i can't really punish oeople for not having cards if they can't possibly buy them…