So I played in a regional tournament. I want to throw a situation out to everyone. There were 4 of us. First round I win so 5 points. Second round my opponent is second TO. This is legal as main TO is not playing. I pull out asteroids and my opponent says "oh man asteroids?" I reply of course its a regional so you have to use them. He had not in his first match a modified win for him. I lost this match in a modified. I took out one of his ships he took out one of mine. 29 points for him 12 for me. During this match I also mention to main TO that asteroids are required for regional. 3rd and final round I switch tables and I win against my final opponent. Second TO does as well. However he still did not use asteroids in his final bout. He ends up with 11 points 2 modifiers and a win. I have 10 points with 2 wins.

Now at this point I have two points to make. After the TO becomes aware of the asteroids yet still turns a blind eye to the other match I say it is a DQ. He stands by the other TO's win and gives him the regional. Also second TO who was playing was main TO for a net runner tournament going on at the same time. Whenever he had to break away our TO would give us extra time on our round in estimate of how long he was gone. Seemed like we only got about 4 or 5 turns in our 65 minute match and the other 2 opponents I was able to run at least 8plus turns. Felt like a bit of time wasting where the modified could have gone either way for us. I had 2 more of his ships on the ropes one more turn may have killed.

Yes this is seeming petty I am sure but it is not sitting right with me as I watch a store employee walk away with a trophy when the playing field was not level. Sooo am I right or am I wrong?

You're correct about the Regionals, as far as I know. The setup is the standard 100-point Dogfight scenario. That includes 6 asteroids. This setup isn't optional.

I'd contact FFG about the tournament and ask what, if anything, they can do.

Tawnos said:

Thanks for youe response. I was reaching out to figure out if I was seeing clearly the situation. I have sent an email to FFG and will see what they say. It sure feels like the two store employee banded together to make sure the one got the trophy.

Honestly? You're both wrong. Should the TO have been using Asteroids? Yes. But did the TO's band together to make sure one of them got the Trophy? Lol, no. There were 4 people, and you didn't finish in 1st place. The person who finished ahead of you, BEAT YOU IN A GAME, with Asteroids (unless I completely misread something). He was the rightful winner of the tourney, pretty clearly too. Now, I understand your irritation. Clearly the two TO's aren't very good TO's, and that can be horribly frustrating. But, at the end of the day you got beat, you need to accept it and move on. You were not the best of the 4 players, and don't deserve the Trophy.

Cheers,

Jon Id Schultz

Jon Id Schultz said:

I can definitely sympathize--particularly since it appears from the point counts that you were running Rebels (or at least some build with 29 points on one ship) whereas the 2nd TO was clearly running Imperials with at least 1 Academy Pilot. I don't care where you're from, without Asteroids, Imperials in general and a TIE Swarm in particular are at a HUGE advantage. I'm struggling to conceive of a build which could beat a Swarm out in the open.

Bottom line, you played by the rules, they didn't. The TO may overrule the FAQ, but not the Tournament rules, and I refer you to p. 2, Squad Deployment Procedure, step 5.

The 2nd TO should have received two DQs, IMHO.

See, this is why I think TOs should just sit out the tournaments they're hosting. If this situation comes up between two players rather than a player and a TO, the simply TO rules on the situation, play goes on, and that's the end of it. The OP might still feel a little slighted, but it probably doesn't end with him feeling as though there was collusion taking place, posting here, and emailing FFG over it.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong to feel the way you do, Darth Octane. It's a tough call either way. Me personally, I'm still trying to get my head around the notion of the two TOs not even knowing the rules for tournament play when those rules have been out in some form or another since like December. And yet they're running a tournament? I mean, I guess as long as you pay your dough, you can host one, but holy mackerel.

Thing is this- if I'm FFG, I put these Regionals on to give X-Wing players something to do and to promote the game. When people leave these things with a sour taste in my mouth, justified or not, I'm kinda shooting myself in the foot.

Jon Id Schultz said:

The OP couldn't be more right, and you couldn't me be more wrong. Maybe the other player wouldn't have won either of the other games if asteroids were used. Since the player and the TO were informed of the rules and chose to ignore them, the player should have been DQed. I would definitely contact FFG and report this. Not sure what they can do, but seems the player and TO were way out of line here. Even if they were not technically banding together (which I doubt), they did willfully violate the rules.

Something similar happened to me at a Kessel run. There isn't much you can do about it. I'd send the email and see what happens. I know the guy at the store I was at was trying to sell the falcon and slave one for $300 each and was pissed when the guys he put in the event got smoked by people who don't play at his store.

Now this may be a bit of rules lawyering, but no where in the Xwing tournament rules does it specifically say that obstacles (asteroids) MUST be used. It only mentions that each player has to have a complete core set that includes (but is not limited to) the set of asteroid tokens to be used when that player has the initiative. The setup procedure Step 5 tells how they are to be setup in a fair manner using the initiative player's asteroid tokens. The real point of contention that I see is how you interpret the Conduct section of the tournament rules which state that sanctioned tournaments are played using the rules in the Xwing core set rulebook under Component Interpretation and Rules, meaning that use of obstacles is governed by the rulebook because use of cards is the only component that has special rules as winning contradictions over the rulebook. In the rulebook, it clearly states (twice) under Advanced Rules that both players must agree to which rules they would like to use, once under the Advanced Rules heading and again under the Obstacles heading. If the tournament rules had said "sanctioned tournaments are to be played using the rules in the Xwing core set rulebook EXCEPT WHERE SPECIFIED IN THESE TOURNAMENT RULES" then the rulebook takes precedence.

In two of the Kessel Run tournaments (FFG sponsored) that I have played and observed, obstacles were optional to the discretion of the players by the TOs. If one player wanted to use obstacles and the other didn't, they would roll off to see if they were included or not and no one argued this to the TO. Personally, I would say that if the player who won your tournament offered or was offered the choice of using obstacles and both players agreed/declined makes it fair. If he apparently won the game with the OP using obstacles, then he won the tournament fairly under the circumstances.

warwalk said:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/X-Wing_TournamentRules_V1.0.pdf

It clearly states at the beginning of the Tournament rules that all FFG X-wing tournaments use the Dogfight scenario. Later in the document, the Setup for that scenario is outlined, and the use of asteroids is clearly stated:

Squad Deployment Procedure

5) Each player selects three asteroid tokens from his core set. Then the players take turns placing
their chosen asteroid tokens into the play area, alternating after each token is placed. The player
with initiative places the first asteroid token. An asteroid token cannot be placed within Range 1–2
of any edge of the play area or within Range 1 of another asteroid token. Players continue until all
six asteroid tokens are placed.

The rules also do not say that open explosions must be treated as critical hits, or that evade results on dice must always be allowed to reduce incoming hits, or any number of other things.

The rules simply state what must be done. There is no requirement that there be another line stating that the previous rule actually is a rule and not a suggestion. If it is in the rule book, and not listed as "optional", it is indeed a rule and needs to be treated as such. The rules clearly explain how the asteroids should be set up, and there is no part in that section that says you have the alternative to simply not put any asteroids down.

Further, the tournament rules also have wording to explain how asteroids shoud be set up in a tournament setting. These rules are also not labeled "optional" so they need to be followed if this is indeed an official tournament. If they were just playing for fun, or if the tournament was not an "official FFG" tournament, by all means the TO should have felt free to add/change/delete any and all rules as they saw fit.

Having said all that, I seriously doubt there was any sort of collusion between the TOs. It seems far more likely that they play together often in a friendly setting, probably with several other people. Using asteroids has always been a kind of optional thing in their familiar setting, and they didn't realize that the way they have always done it is not actually correct according to the rules. The OP is correct that the one TO should have had 2 DQs, but at the end of the day some understanding that all people, even all TOs, do not have a perfect grasp of the rules or a good understanding of the necessity for them would help him overcome the irritation.

Really? I couldn't be more wrong? So then I guess the TO didn't violate the rules (as I said he did), and I guess the OP won the tourney (as I said he didn't) and I guess he walked away with a trophy too huh? Thank you for filling us all in.

Let's be real here, the OP is suggesting that EVERY OTHER PLAYER should have been DQ'd as the Player clearly told everyone that the Asteroids are required. Yet the Head TO said they are not. So a player should be DQ'd for following the TO's ruling? Ok, sorry, I don't buy that. And let's get even more into the nitty-gritty here, what if you have an opponent that say, isn't using their Critical Markers when their ship takes a Critical hit? DQ'd? Really? No, DQ'ing is for when the TO (not some player) says "hey, you need to start obeying this rule" and then they don't. Not when some random player says how things should be and people don't follow it. I mean, let's do the math, 4 players, 3 rounds, so everyone faced everyone. That means that not just the TO, but someone else that the OP played also chose not to use Asteroids. In fact, it means that of the 5 players there FOUR of them thought Asteroids weren't necessary, even after the OP explained it to them.

The TO is there to make rulings. They will make ones that aren't correct in the general sense, but they ARE CORRECT because they are the TO. And honestly, my advice is designed to help, not hurt. Honestly, the OP should suck it up and move on. The chances of FFG doing anything about it are 3,720 to 1. And realistically, the only thing they would probably do is stop sending prizes to that Venue. Whom does that help? Instead of a venue still struggling to get players you simply don't have a venue.

But that's my take, move on. Learn from your loss. Move on, have fun, enjoy the game.

Sorry (really), you are right, that was not the best way to put it. But, I was talking about your opinion (which I still disagree with), not the basic facts of the situation (though I do not read the OP as saying every other player should have been DQed). The TO screwed up and it is too bad and unfair no matter how you slice it (even if there was no collusion… it still seems like there could have been some favoritism to me). The guy who won the tournament had two modified wins when he didn't use astroids, who knows what would have happened if they were used. I don't think the OP is dwelling on it in an unhealthy way, they are asking a valid question that is good for the health of the game.

If a venue can not be bothered to host a Regional event according to the basic game rules, then they shouldn't continue to get Regional events to host. FFG should not be sending out Regional prize kits to venues that do not show the willingness to run an event properly.

As a person that TOs bi-weekly Star Wars LCG and X-wing tournaments, among other experience running other game systems, I find this type of thing really inexcusable.

FFG gives TOs in thier tournament document final say in all rulings. That is a burden TOs have in regards to game systems that are never completely air tight or up to date on thier errata. The TO has to make some calls, right or wrong, to simply get through the tournament. Basic game rules and tournament set up is not one of those things. That is just lazyness on the part of the TO in not going through the tournament info before hosting a Regional event.

These events are suppose to bring in varying playgroup, that may other wise not play togegether, as such people hosting these events have a duty to host them properly. Anything less is really just not respecting those traveling into you venue/playgroup. I doubt there is any true colusion going on in this case, but it sure does look shady regardless.

TOs are there to make rulings when rulings need to be made, not ignore clearly stated rules.

I'm sure this sounds harsh in regards to a game, but people are spending thier time and money to go to these events. FFG is offering at least some level of seeding for thier Championship with these events along with the other prizes. I don't think people time and money is insignifigant, I know mine isn't. I'd hate to take off a Saturday from work, (which isn't easy in a restaurant), lose out on what I'd make that day (which usually is about my car payment for perspective), spend money to travel and enter; and then have a tournament run in a haphazard to really shady manner. It is a game, but it's also peoples time and money, I think that desrves respect enough to take the time to run the event right.

^^^

Remember when they said "Scottie doesn't know"? They were wrong.