Soar
1. Do soaring enemies block movement? Seems silly to me since they are high in the air
2. If two soaring figures are adjacent to each other what is their effective distance to each other since the rules say that the distance from and to a soaring figure is increased by four spaces.

OL Plot
Do the plot cards count towards the "one OL upgrade per turn" limit or are they unlimited?

Beastman Lord Final Battle
What happens with figures on the pit spaces if one of the heroes leaves the encounter marker blocking the pit?

Nimrod said:

Soar
1. Officially yes, though many have house ruled it otherwise (including me)
2. Not sure when that would ever come up, but I would say 1

OL Plot. Yes, it does count towards the limit.

Paul Grogan said:

Not so sure about that- The Overlord upgrades are listed on page 24 with the specific condition that one and only one of them may be purchased, however, the plot upgrades are three sections after that and describe no such limit. In fact, some of the plot cards could not legally be purchased when the OL is allowed to buy upgrades - take the last card in Obsidian Shackles for instance- it can only be played while the heroes are upgrading in a town. There is clearly no legal way to purchase this if it is still an Overlord upgrade.

It still could have been intended that these are one and the same, but it doesn't look like it to me.

OL Plot:

Page 10 of the Rule Book states:

Upgrades
The overlord may purchase one upgrade per game week with
his XP. Upgrade examples include Avatar Upgrades, Plot cards ,
treachery upgrades, and monster upgrades. For a full list, see
“Overlord Upgrades” on page 24.

So, Yes they count against the "one Upgrade" Rule

2. Not sure when that would ever come up, but I would say 1

Eg: You target one of the soaring enemies with a Blast attack > Does the blast affect the adjacent soaring creature? And if there is an adjacent ground figure, would it be affected too?

Ladoik said:

Nice call. They totally messed up pages 24-25 then.

Soar
This ability is only used during outdoor encounters. Any figure
with Soar is considered to be flying above the ground, and the
range both to and from it is increased by four spaces.

this states that figures that are soaring are on a grid of spaces exactly four spaces up from ground based figures for purposes of range. therefore any figure soaring is on the same plane and lateral range is the same as on the ground. if two figures are adjacent on the same plane for what ever reason at any given time they are adjacent. if you target a figure or space on a plane, blast is figured normally on that plane. if you were able to achieve a blast of four it would effect figures on both the soaring plane and the ground plane. other hight advantages need to be taken into affect as well. if a figure was say in a pit it would then be logical to say it is 1 additional space from a soaring figure. if a figure was to be standing on something with a height advantage of 1 it would reduce the range to the soaring figure by 1.

Dwome said:

Actually, it does not state that at all. It states that the figure is flying above the ground and it states that range to or from the figure is increased by 4 spaces. While it might make it easier to think of the 4 spaces being a 4 space grid above the board and another 'plane' there is no such definition.
These are interesting and thematic house rules though.

The distance between two adjacent soaring figures RAW is 9. (1(adjacent)+4(Soar from)+4(Soar to)=9. Two adjacent Soaring figures may not affect each other with Melee attacks. Consider it a side affect of dogfighting of you like!

There are no additional 'planes' to be added or subtracted by pits or elevantions. However note that an elevated figure will get +1 range (and +1 damage) by way of being elevated (so that part is not such a great house rule as it is 'double dipping' for the elevated figure - +1 range and -1 to the required range).

Note that Blast and Breath both ignore Soar.

The only time I can think of that this might come up is via the use of Necromancy. Note that heroes are expressly forbidden from ever having Soar (even if they have Fly).

so if a range of four on the board is one four squares, then why is it not automaticaly assumed that a range of four up is any different, i understand as well that until we had overworld encounters height had no real affect, but if one is so low in a pit that the figure can only see adjacent spaces, would this not place it down by one. i see your point of objects not being tall enough to provide any range difference, and agree it would be a bit of double dipping.

if a figure can move and fire diagonally on the map horizontally why not vertically if they have the ability? the distance stated seems to be more to eliminate melee attacks on adjacent figures when one is on the ground and the other is soaring. for ranged attacks the minimum would be four as the figure is soaring. for example if a figure on the ground attacks an adjacent soaring figure then the range is four, but if the figures involved have five lateral spaces apart the range would be five not nine. if the soaring figure may swoop down and attack with melee and then return to soaring height it must be done during normal movement. so if a razor wing with a movement of 8 is 5 spaces away from a hero it uses 5 movement to swoop and pass the total distance using only 5 movement to make its melee attack, this implies vertical diagonals.

if we are going to play with three dimensional abilities then we must place a concrete system of distance. i will let you come up with your own but for my group we will be using the same grid up as over.

the thing that bothers me is that you seemed to have the answer to you question before you asked it so you seem to be looking for a battle of wits. i expected one with a screen name like yours to be better than that. i come to this forum looking for insight and to pass on what i can. people lookong for fights are why i do not frequent other forums. i hope i missunderstood you meaning on this as i still have many questions of my own but have far too much reading yet to begin asking, and i hope to learn from everyone here yet.

Dwome said:

While you might not agree with Corbon's manner of reply, he happens to be completely correct about Soar.

The +4 range is pretty much intended to eliminate melee attacks (except in the case of a Guard) and to imply elevated distance for range and magic. Soar is a strange ability that many people have questioned before.

As for pits, there is nothing that says how deep pits actually are so it not really realistic to say they add +1 range to an attack versus Soar when in a pit. From a technical standpoint, one could just as easily say that they are two spaces deep since it costs two movement points to get out of one.

As for Blast, I not sure how you arrived at having to do a Blast 4 attack to hit a Soaring creature. The FAQ clarified that Blast treats Soaring creatures as if they were not Soaring. Several of the ruling concerning Soar are by products of using a 2D map to describe a 3D effect, like Blast. Nothing says the Blast goes off at ground level, it might just as easily go off one or two "squares" above the ground. In a realistic sense, if the monsters are really 4 squares above the ground it makes not sense why they block line of sight and movement but they do.

As for implying vertical diagonals, it start to fall apart once you look at a figure that is Soaring attacking a figure "adjacent" to it. By the range, its 4 squares away. But since swooping to make an attack does not require the spending of 4 movement points to do so, you start to run into problems.

Considering that Soar is currently the only "3D" ability in the game, I'm not sure if it is really necessary to have a concrete system of distance for it as long as the rule governing it are clear and reasonable.

Dwome said:

Excuse me?
It wasn't my question and I didn't ask any. You seem to be both answering my post and the OP at the same time, perhaps confusing us as the same person???

You posted some interesting house rules without indicating that they were houserules.
I posted a RAW answer for the benefit of those who wish to know what the rules say before choosing whether or not to adopt house rules.
I didn't ask any question?

You are imputing a number of things that are not correct.
If a figure on the ground attacks an adjacent Soaring figure the range is 5, not 4. The range would normally be 1, but the range to the Soaring figure is increased by 4, therefore is 5. Edit: if however, the attacker waited until the Soaring creature was in the same sapce, the range would indeed be 4, so you are right in this circumstance.
If the figures are 5 lateral spaces apart the range is 9, not 5. Soar still requires 4 additional range to be added.
Swoop does not cost any movement points. Heck, a Demon can Soar and swoop and only has 3 Movement!
There is no 3D grid. There is only elevated spaces providing a bonus/penalty, and Soar providing additional range (both to and from).
Your vertical diagonals razorwing example is incorrect. Swooping is done on the spot both up and down, not space by space, level by level. An interrupt attack on your Razorwing one space before it attacked would still count the entire range bonus/penalty from Soar, not have that penalty reduced for the 'descent' of the Rzaorwing over spaces as it swoops.

Passing on insight is fine, and you have some interesting ideas (though IMO (and thats only an opinion) they need some refinement). However it is confusing when you present house rules like these as actual rules when responding to a rules question.

The "soaring monsters next to each other" problem is an odd enough situation that I don't think there's a good answer. The reasonable answer is that soaring monsters are all on the same plane, so melee soarers can attack each other while soaring. However, there's no basis for that in the rules. Meanwhile, stacking Soar distances makes sense rules-wise but would either imply that:

A) All soaring monsters have their own "soar vector", perpendicular to the main board and every other soaring monster, such that, at any given time, there are 2+n dimensions on the board where n = number of soaring monsters.

or

B) Ranged/Magic attacks have to go all the way to the ground and all the way back up to the sky in order to attack from one soaring monster to another

Basically, stacking Soar distances is totally unreasonable from a common-sense standpoint. Unlike the Stomach Tile, where each creature would have its own stomach, it's silly to think of each Soaring creature as inhabiting its own airspace separate from all others. Thus, the reasonable answer isn't supported and the supported answer isn't reasonable, so I'd like to add it to the list of unanswered questions.

Thundercles said:

I absolutely agree that it is an odd situation (and very, very rare).

I also understand that it seems very strange if you follow the RAW. However, that is an entirely thematic choice and as always with thematics, there is an available counter argument...
"The extreme range between two adjacent Soaring figures represents the extra difficulty involved in targetting during a freewhelling aerial combat.
The inability to strike with melee combat represents the danger involved for two large flying creatures high in the air where direct physical conrontation is likely to cause enough damage to both or either party to make continued flying impossible and therefore mutual distruction the most likely outcome. Thus slash and run tactics (not well represented by a full melee attack) are necessary for two flying creatures when High."

I'm not saying this is the thematic way it is, just that there are possible thematic explanations that fit the RAW.

I also agree that it would be a good houserule to say that Soar cancels Soar. But it would be a house rule.

first off let me oploogize to you carbon, i did indeed get your post mixed with another. i will not justify it with excuses, please forgive me.

i do stand corrected on my attack distance from the ground.

after reading all of the available litriture on the subjaect i fail to see much clarity on either side. i agree swoop may be done all at once and not use movement points. as far as the pit thing goes, it is not a house rule it is just an example of another elevation issue that could come into affect with soar, however, that being said i have yet to see a pit on play on an overworld map. and soar has no affect in a dungeon, with the exception perhaps of the second to last quest in WOD, where the cavern opens up into the night sky for the last room. i do not have the game pieces with me at this time so i only have the pdf's of the rules from this site to go off of but i understand that some heros may have the ability to fly or be granted it by an object, and if not hen i see no real need to define the distance between two soaring figures as i have yet to see why an overlord would attack his own creatures. perhaps one of the new skills, or feats in TOI provide the heros with some form or dark possesion or other. meh.

as it would also be very rare for two soaring figures to attack each other, i will wait on further judgement from the FFG staff.

now this part is for discussion sake only and has no bearing on game play.

osprey will often engage in aerial battle with eagles for fish. perigrin falcons not only attack their prey on the wing, they mate in the sky as well in a fassion that can only be called a fight. yes in all instances stated from natue all parties run the risk of falling due to many physical issues, which therefore holds the possabillity of death. in all of these it is a survival issue. they eithe need to eat or procreate, so these things are done. they live on primal instinct, and the monsters in the game are controlled by the the overlord, a higher minded creatur we hope would not throw away is toys in such a manner. but then again he is evil and anything that slows down the heros is a worth while investment.

Dwome said:

no problem, these things happen.

The only way I can see Soar vs Soar is a 'necromancied' monster attacking a 'normal' monster.

The Soar description explicitly states that heroes may not have Soar (even though there are ways they can get Flying.

ok last bit i will contribute to this subject for now.

after rereading the material for full content not just pertinance to spatial issues,

from the FAQ:

Q: Do Soaring creatures benefit from terrain?
A: While a creature is Soaring, it ignores the terrain in its current space. A Soaring creature may choose to “land” and disable its Soar power until its next turn; if it does this it is affected by terrain just like any other figure.
Q: Do Soaring creatures block Line of Sight and movement?
A: Yes.
Q: What happens when I hit a Soaring creature with a Blast weapon?
A: Treat creatures with Soar as if they did not have Soar for area-of-effect attacks such as Blast.

this negates any issues of spacial difference for these attacks and therefore make the issue mute.

on the issue of two soarong figures attacking each other, since this is a turn based game there is no real threat of injury to the attacking figure. but again as rare as the situation is, meh.

OK, thx all for the interesting answers and discussions. I was asking because we had a little situation in the last game:

We played the encounter with the shades in the location "shadowy copses". Since the shades are soaring 4 spaces above the ground and the visibilty is limited to 3 spaces that encounter was impossible for the heroes to win. The situation is even more absurde regarding the fact that a soaring creatur blocks movement and LOS... This means, by following the rules, I can perma-block the heroes, spawn a new shade every 2nd turn and collect unlimited conquest...

We house-ruled it by saying a soaring creature can choose to soar or to be on the ground. If it soars it doesnt block movement or LOS, if it is on the ground it does. I would be interested in you comments.

And does anyone have an answer to my initial question regarding the pit in the beastman lord encounter?

Nimrod said:

Soar only affects Range, not visibility. Strictly speaking, RAW, the heroes can still see the Shades, and attack them with Ranged or Magic weapons (as long as they are within 3 spaces.
It is, after all, the shadows that are limiting visibility, and soaring creatures are above those...

Its a reasonable enough assumption to make, but Soaring creatures are not actually 4 spaces up, merely 'above the ground' - only the range to (or from) them has 4 added to it and Range is only a feature of attacks.

Nimrod said:

Nothing. The pit tokens are removed. Thats all.

A more interesting question might have been what happens to figures in the pit if it reopens? I would have still said nothing, as it is not a pit trap nor is the figure moving onto it.

Thundercles said:

Spotted this in the (current but old, v1.4) FAQ (pg 8) while searching something else.
Q: How does Soar interact with abilities such as Aura, Shadowcloak, and Grapple that refer to adjacency?
A: A creature that is Soaring is adjacent to no other creatures. ...

Since DJitD pg 11...
Melee Attacks: Melee attacks can only be declared against adjacent spaces.

... it seems pretty clear that adjacent Soaring monsters definitely cannot attack each other with melee weapons.