Honestly, I think they already printed a "fix" for the Y-Wing: Engine Upgrade.

Also, as another poster pointed out, the ability to ion very agile ships such as Interceptor's or Vader with an engine upgrade should not be underestimated. Barrel roll and boost combined are very hard to deal with otherwise.

As something of a fan of Y-Wings I want to be able to build a list using them that goes into my sensibilities. The best way I see this happening is giving us options for the upgrades (or giving us more targets to shoot protons at). A better turret doing more damage would do wonders, because the flying brick squadron of 4 Y-Wings can wallow about maiming and hurting TIE fighters that get too close. 2 possible points of damage against run-of-the-mill TIEs is much more advantageous (and desireable) to me than only one damage and an ion marker.

I don't see the comparison valid between Y-Wings and A-Wings because the latter are so much better combatants in spite of their low attack because:

1, their movement dials have so many more position options
2, they have high agility so they can dodge just like TIEs can
3, they have boost built-in which gives them better positioning and
4, they have missiles which already have a plethroa variety.

The only thing the Y-Wing has going for it right now is the resiliency and the Ion Cannon, which while others value for the ion ability, I don't see it as being a worthwhile investment.

I'm also looking at this from the perspective of an Imperial player and not seeing much to be afraid of when it comes to the Y-Wing. I dodge higher than what Torpedoes will realistically hit. The Ion cannon is a minor inconvinence because I can still dodge, still shoot, and often boost anyway on valueble fighters. If a TIE is Ion-trapped I still have 5+ others to concentrate and kill one of the Y-Wings. I usually kill Y-Wings last because they can't hurt me as much as the X-Wings can, and I know A-Wings will pop if I concentrated my fire.

And Voidstate… I think that player's mistake was going alone with an Interceptor. You either fly one with backup or give it enough modifiers (like stealth device and elusiveness) so that it can dodge shots like that. Any TIE fighter isn't going to be an invincible one-shot ship killer… the whole faction is geared for multiple attacks from multiple ships. Plus I'd want the Y-Wing to become more effective and deadly than just being a "rear guard ship". *shrug*

I dunno Kyln, I'd think Ion-hitting ships with Boost would be less effective because they can still move after being Ionized as an action. True, they miss Barrel Roll and all the other modifiers, but they can still move to an inconvinent location after being hit. It wouldn't be this way if Ion Cannons do what they've done in every other game and actually affect the ship more than just restricting movement options… disabling shooting and nerfing dodge should have at least been considered. THEN Ions, in my opinion, would be worthwhile. Nerfing movement options is just weak.

KineticOperator said:

I think the problem here is that you just aren't very good at math.

There is nothing "average" about a TIE Interceptor rolling 4 dice, getting 4 hits, and an A-Wing rolling 3 dice in defense, and getting solid 'blanks'. In fact, the odds of that happening are 0.33% - IE., about 1 in 3,000. If you are getting those results 'on average' with your rolls, may I suggest that maybe you should be playing the lottery instead of X-Wing?

There is no "depending on your roll" about it - your argument only makes sense when you assume statistically unbelievable events as 'the norm'. (To be fair, the situation isn't MUCH worse for the Y-Wing, as landing four hits isn't super-likely in the first place. The odds of a TIE Interceptor landing 4 hits on a Y-Wing in that situation is a bit over 2%, though - still improbable, but nearly 10 times more likely than the same thing happening to an A-Wing.)

It's worth pointing out, especially if you review the OP that started this thread, I'm not trying to make the Y-Wing into an equal of the X-Wing (which I think some people seem to believe is the position).

I get that it's a "support fighter", that's fine. And, indeed, the ion cannon is a useful force multiplier.

The problem with the Y-Wing is that without the ion cannon (which isn't built into the base cost, being 5 points extra), an A-Wing is a better choice for any role, flat out, than the Y-Wing. It is more resilient in battle, it does more damage (missiles > torpedoes), and it's cheaper.

And that is just ridiculous. You shouldn't have to buy the ion cannon to make the Y-Wing have any measurable value (especially given its cost).

My suggestion would give the Y-Wing some more flexibility (unfortunately, not really enough to change the fact that the A-Wing is flat-out always a better purchase for the points unless you bring along an ion cannon), that's all. Maybe enough to make it feel like something other than a complete joke to see on your opponent's table.

By far the best time to Ion is after an opponent gains stress. You can perma-lock them into 1 forwards with no actions (they won't have the chance to make a green maneuver to get rid of the stress).

Engine Upgrade is very useful on Y-Wings by the way. Also, if you are trying to kill TIE fighters you need to hit them at range 1 with your primaries, just using Ion is way too slow. The Ions just give you an extra shot as you pass, and a chance to get them to hold still so you can take that range 1 primary shot.

I have had good luck with my Gold Squadron (Dutch with R5K6 and 3 x Gold Squadron, everybody with Ions) and my Grey Squadron (Horton w/R2D2, Proton Torpedoes, Ion and Engine Upgrade, 2 x Grey Squadron w/Ion and Engine Upgrade). I wonder if many people dismiss the strength of Ion cannons because they are only running one. With 2 or 3 Target Locked shots you can pretty much guarantee one ship of your choice will be drifting. If you are moving the whole squadron to set up for that Range 1 primary shot it is usually enough. Just make sure that first ship is Wedge or Vader or Howlrunner or whatever single ship his list relies most on.

Those two lists get better the fewer ships my opponent has, and worse if he plays more. An 8 TIE swarm is a nightmare, a 3 ship Vader/Fel/Phennir list is a pushover. I am thrilled to see someone Push the Limit to get behind me. I shoot them just as easily, but if a hit denies them an action and their movement (and since they are keeping their stress, not gaining a new one, even Fel doesn't get to Focus). Just like a lot of lists, some matchups are just better than others.

I agree with the point about missile variety. It would really help if we got a few more torpedo options, just so we have a choice.

Xanderf, your math is incorrect even if you discount the concepts I reference. 4 hits on 4 dice is actually 1/16, or about 1/3 with focus. Add Target Locks for rerolls and your odds are even higher. Failed evade on 3 dice is a little less than 1/8, better if you focus but focus assumes you are only shot at once per turn and that you didnt already use that Focus to deal damage. Since most players fire all their shots at a single ship it is very likely you will not have focus available for defense. Add the possibility of a crit for Direct Hit or Minor Explosion for a "free" point of damage and the chance of an A-Wing being oneshotted at range 1 is actually pretty significant. A 1/3 chance of getting 4 hits with a 1/8 chance of getting 0 evades is 1/24, which is a very, very far cry from 1/3000. 4 Interceptors shooting can do this once every 6 turns. This is why I have seen it happen several times, why I have also seen Stealthed Interceptors get one shotted from time to time, and why we have all seen Inteceptors, TIEs, and sometimes even X-Wings get oneshotted every once in a while.

It is true I used a fairly extreme example to illustrate the point, but I was concerned the concept involved wouldn't be clear if I were more subtle. The point is that "averages" are not the same thing as expected outcomes. If your ship has a 1/10 chance of being hit, but only 1 hit point, statistically you will lose that ship BEFORE turn 10 half the time, where if you have a 100% chance of being hit but have 10 hit points you will survive all 10 turns. Combined with the concept of Front Loading, the benefit of surviving past 10 turns is much, much smaller than the penalty for getting killed early, making it a BAD BET.

My other point is that A wings don't average (3 evade chances x 3 dice) on every shot taken, because any evades rolled in excess of incoming hits do not reduce damage and must be counted as BLANKS. I am not familiar enough with this forum to lay it out on a table, but there is a VERY large reduction in the damage avoided when you calculate it properly rather than just multiply 3/8 x 3 agl x number of attacks, and that penalty is even HIGHER when you account for Focus (because you discard more "extra" evade rolls).

Edit: I saw your reply that came in while I was writing this tome. :-) I agree, the Y-Wing without the Ion Cannon just doesn't have either the firepower or the utility to justify its cost. With the exception of Horton, there really is no reason to ever play a Y-Wing without one (and even he is much better with one than without), which is a shame. Somebody else suggested we make the Y-Wing 5 points cheaper and make the Ion Cannon cost 10. That way the combined cost stays the same but a naked Y-Wing is more cost effective and I thought that seemed like a pretty good idea.

I flew a 4-Ship Grey squadron build all with Ion cannons against a run-of-the-mill Empire list (Vader, Howlrunner, WInged Gundark, 2x Academy pilots) and only just barely managed to come out on top (Last Y-Wing survived with 1 Hit point). I consider myself a fairly good player and feel that if these were X-Wings instead, I'd have mopped the floor with my opposition. There's not much you can squeeze out of an all Y-Wing force and I feel that ships should be more effective than they are.

I also think it's pointless to consider modding the cards that are already printed. Stickers are fiddly to use and not very professional IMO. The quickest fix for the Y-Wings is to introduce new upgrade cards to help the existing Y-Wings be more well-rounded and flexible. Printing additional pilots designed to use the Y-Wing would also be beneficial so that the models could be used. Existing strategies would not be replaced, but players like me with new pilots and upgrades would have the chance to fly the Y-Wing as we like it.

KineticOperator said:

In order for a single range-one TIE Interceptor (which doesn't get target locks) to one-shot an A-Wing, it requires not just all four dice being hits, but also all three maneuver rolls being misses. If the A-Wing makes even a single maneuver roll, it survives. If the TIE misses even one of his rolls, the A-Wing survives. So you've got to have all 7 dice on both sides get the right results for it to be a one-shot. That's what the cited odds were based on.

KineticOperator said:

Sure, but even in that example you are comparing two hypothetical ships that have a difference of 10 times the odds of being hit and 10 times the internals. The Y-Wing (compared to the A) doesn't have a number of hitpoints equal to ratio difference in agility. If the Y-Wing had better agility so that it was half of the A-Wings (rather than 1/3 - nevermind the actions the A gets which the Y doesn't), then having only double the internals would balance that out. Or, I suppose, if it had triple the hull+shields instead of double, I guess. Getting a bit crazy, then, but the difference in agility IS really signficant compared to the difference in defensive points at the moment.

KineticOperator said:

That's actually a rather interesting suggestion. I mean, really, the Y-Wing isn't any worse than a TIE Fighter, and nobody complains about the utility of those things…because they are cheap! At the moment, though, most of the Y-Wings (without an ion cannon) cost as much as or MORE than the A-Wings, and that's utterly ludicrous. Without the ion cannon, it's not even close to the same capablity!

At this point I am just writing here to help new players avoid getting frustrated because things don't work out the way their calculations say they "should". That can be a maddening experience and cause many people to believe they are "unlucky" or wonder if opponents are somehow loading their dice.

Because good players will concentrate fire on a single target, the majority of shots are focused shots (since most ships aren't being shot at in any given turn) vs. non-focused ships (since you only get to focus vs. one of the multiple shots coming in) so that is how I would want to figure "odds".

A focused 4 die attack has about 1/3 chance of coming up all hits (6/8 * 6/8 * 6/8 * 6/8 or 31.6%). A non-focused 3 die defense has a slightly less than 1/4 chance of coming up all misses (5/8 * 5/8 * 5/8 or 24.4%). Combined, you have about 1/12 chance (31.6% * 24.4% = 7.7%, actually 1/13) of getting that one shot kill, not accounting for critical damage. Accounting for criticals and using a focus vs. the first shot puts you roughly 1/16 chance of a one shot kill using a Range 1 Interceptor vs. A-Wing. If you have 4 Interceptors shooting you actually have roughly a 1/4 chance of losing an A-Wing to a one shot kill on the very first round, and the odds are much worse if any of those shots had rerolls (say if an X-Wing were the ship making the range 1 attack or the 4 dice were the result of a Homing Missile). If the A-Wing is worth 30+ points that could easily mean the game. I don't like going into a turn with a 1/4 chance of losing the game entirely, it doesn't take too many turns like that before something goes wrong and I get eliminated from a tournament.

We aren't really disagreeing on the Y-Wing as far as its utility without an Ion cannon. I am just trying to point out that A-Wings (and TIEs) are very vulnerable to poor dice in the early game (far more so than Y-Wings), and that you are figuring out "average" damage incorrectly. If you evade more hits than the opponent rolled, those evades are wasted. If you are killed in the first volley, all of the evades you would have rolled in later turns to "average things out" are also wasted. This brings the effective number of evade rolls down dramatically from the number you get if you just calculate odds and multiply it by the number of times you "expect" to be attacked.

Variability is as important to consider as "averages" for competitive play. If you want to build lists that will carry you reliably through multiple tournament rounds, you cannot rely on "average" numbers alone. You have to account for variability (the possibility of a bad roll). If you have a list with a 50% chance of winning in the first round, but it also has 25% chance of losing in the first round, it will look good "on average", and impress the hell out of everyone half the time, but you are unlikely to remain undefeated throughout an entire 5 rounds of tournament play. The odds are good that you will get unlucky once, and a single loss is all it usually takes to knock you out of the running. This is one of the main reasons solid tournament lists are gravitating towards the YT-1300s. They may not have the potential to withstand 10 rounds of incoming fire, but they can be relied upon to survive 4 rounds every single time. As for the Y-Wing vs. A-Wing, even though the numbers you have calculated over estimate the number of attacks an A-Wing will evade (for the reasons I have stated), Y-Wings will indeed die significantly faster "on average" than a similar number of points worth of A-Wings (as you said). The advantage Y-Wings have is that their defenses are much, much less variable so a solid Y-Wing build is far less vulnerable to simple bad luck. If you were evaluating them for inclusion in a tournament list Y-Wings would have a lower rating for performance (averages) but a much higher rating in consistency (variability). Most new players (for that matter most players, period) intuitively grasp the performance part of list building, but either are not aware of or are unable to account for the variablity portion of list building.

One of the best things a person can do to improve their winning percentage (in any game) is to take an actuarial class at a community college. The class will be mostly focused on insurance, but the concepts involved in risk calculation are invaluable both in the gaming hobby and when it comes to managing finances. Just saying. :-)

As for X-Wing, I am sure you and I can agree that mastering these calculations won't provide anywhere near the benefit that learning to maneuver your ships will. If you can keep your guns pointed at the bad guys and not run into anything, you will win far more games than you lose no matter what ships you are flying.

xanderf said:

Except that the A-wing cannot go straight forward 1, and can only survive 4 damage. I'm not sure that the y-wing is a worse choice in all roles than the a-wing, even without any upgrades.

And as an aside, Torpedos are now stronger than they were before - because critical hits matter more in wave 2, so missiles being > than torpedoes I disagree with, and if we're starting to add weapons - 2x torpedoes are better than 1x missile - especially when a y-wing is likely to survive long enough to fire both.

KineticOperator said:

Apologies for not making that clear, but as there had seemed to be some objection to including 'focus' in my earlier numbers, for this last set I omitted it and used just the base die rolls for the calculations - that changes the picture a bit, as I'm sure you note. (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 or 6.25% of all four hitting without focus)

KineticOperator said:

Not sure where the "1/4 chance" number come from - even using your numbers, with focus for the TIE but no 'evade' or 'focus' for the defender - the chance of a one-shot kill is still only 7.7%. Let the A-Wing player notice the TIE Interceptor barrelling down to range 1 of him, and have him put up an 'evade' token, and now the odds are 0% of a one-shot kill (four defense + the evade = 5 hits to kill it, and the TIE can only generate 4).

I don't like much 'playing the odds', myself, but something that only has a neary-8% chance of happening at best, and requires the stars to align to even work (I didn't notice the TIE coming in so have no 'evade', or I spent my 'focus' on something other than defending myself from him; and the TIE managed to get to range 1; and he still has his 'focus' token; etc)….I dunno, I feel pretty safe about that.

KineticOperator said:

I did mention that the numbers weren't a perfect comparison, but it worked to get in the general ballpark. It's certainly true that the Y-Wing has more raw hit points than the A-Wing, and the A-Wing is relying on dice for its defense…but so many dice (plus the optional evade token) that it rather washes out fairly well. (Particularly with that evade token - the A-Wing effectively taking 5 points to kill vs the Y-Wing's 8 points)

That certainly goes without saying! Maneuver is most of the game, really!

Ravncat said:

Well you don't need a forward 1 with the A-Wing. If you're avoiding collisions boost ahead, or consider doing a K-turn.

How do you mean criticals mean more in Wave 2? That you can pop an A-Wing with the wrong hit? The only way I see Torpedoes being more effective with Wave 2 is if your opponent brings a large ship to the table. A-Wings and TIE Interceptors still dodge at 3, which has largely made proton torpedoes ineffective up till now.

I find it amusing that so far, most of the detractors for the Y-Wing post hypotheticals and math, while there have been several posts of real world examples where the Y-Wing survived (even if only just barely) and/or proved useful. Oh, and last night we ran a regatta style space race where weapons fire was used. As I've mentioned previously, non-character pilots and no upgrades for our games. Mainly cause we're still learning things. The Y-Wing pilot not only managed to pop the A-Wing, but also made life interesting for the X-Wing and TIE Interceptor pilots.

xanderf said:

7.7% per shot x 4 shots is just over 30% which is what I described as 1/4. My 1/4 is lower because I factored in the A-Wing using focus against the first shot.

What it comes down to is that a focused shot vs. unfocused agility has about 1/12 of generating a one shot kill. I did the math for 4 attack dice vs. 3 agility dice. The first shot has a significantly lower chance of success, the next 3 (because focus has been used by the A-Wing already) have 1/12, it comes to approximately 1/16 PER SHOT of getting a one shot kill. 1/16 per shot x 4 shots, 1/4 chance on the first turn that one of the Interceptors will one-shot an A-Wing. Note I am only figuring the odds for a one shot kill, the actual odds of that A-Wing surviving are much lower (since the damage would accumulate). The danger is that if a one shot kill occurs early, it can devastate your game.

The point I was trying to make is that an A-Wing would "average" about 1 1/3 "evades" every time it is shot at (no focus) using straight probability, which is how you have been calculating. However, that does not account for rounds where the opponent generates fewer hits than the evades you roll or even misses entirely (both lowering the number of evades "counted"). Neither does it account for the other end of the graph where an early "lucky" shot causes your ship to pop so it never gets a chance to roll all those evades.

I just want to point out that "average" performance is not even remotely the same thing as what you can "expect". Many new players, in this game and others, set themselves up for failure by looking at "average" performance and neglecting to consider how you got that average. To illustrate my point with an easier to understand hypothetical, I used the example of a ship that has 10 hit points but has 100% chance of being hit, and a ship with only 1 hit point that has a 1/10 chance of being hit. The two are not in any way equals in competitive play, despite the fact that they both should last an "average" of 10 shots. If your list requires your ships to survive 8 shots in order to win, the 10 hit point ship will win EVERY game, the 1 hit point ship will lose more than half the time (57% of the time actually), and that doesn't even account for the loss of effectiveness for "outperforming" a threat (for example, rolling 3 evades when you are only taking one damage).

By the way, I played a game tonight against a friend and took the following squad just because of our conversation:

Horton (R2D2, Engine Upgrade), 3 x Gold Squadron (Engine Upgrade)

vs.

Howlrunner (Elusiveness), Mauler Mithel (Veteran Instincts), Dark Curse, Backstabber, Winged Gundark, Nightbeast.

I won with Horton (4 damage but shields back to 3), Gold (3 damage), and Gold (1 shield remaining) left on the board. I will say that the Engine Upgrade was absolutely essential to my being successful. I was able to boost repeatedly to push the Golds into the way of his TIEs in order to deny them actions. My opponent tried to keep the whole bunch of them in fairly tight formation in order to concentrate fire and take advantage of Howlrunner (who I focused on and killed fairly early), and when I put 3 Golds in front of them with Horton maneuvering to shoot at the traffic jam, they suffered badly from "chain reaction" pileups. Horton was a monster (as usual), even after a Kooirigan turn he shoots very accurately, and if he can focus up he is devastating.

My opponent is fairly new to be fair, but even so the Y-Wings performed awfully well. He was cussing about how "you hit them and hit them and the **** things just won't die". :-)

KineticOperator said:

Eh, to be fair, it's a pretty awful TIE build he was working from, too - absolutely no synergy. Winged Gundark is fairly overrated, IMHO (I would, any day , take an academy pilot with stealth device, for the same points); and Night Beast and Backstabber both have perks that are entirely maneuver-dependent…which, if you are trying to keep the formation together because of Howlrunner, you cannot take advantage of. At least Dark Curse doesn't really care what build he is included with (fair value for his points, anywhere), and Mauler Mithel - when working closely with Howlrunner - can make a very aggressive close-range attack, but…otherwise…

I dunno, try a better build - even Howlrunner with 5 academy pilots, all 6 running stealth.

Or even 5 TIE Interceptors (some mix of alpha and avenger, or just alpha with some elite pilot)…I don't think the Y-Wings would fair near as well. Especially if the Empire sensibly keeps his range up!

xanderf said:

Completely accurate assessment. I pointed that out to him before the game, and he said he just wanted to see how the various named pilots all performed. Like I said, he is pretty new to the game and still trying to get familiar with it. My Y-Wing list was pretty sub-optimal as well and I am sure it would have faired much worse against a "proper" list.

I fly Y-Wings all the time. Usually two with either Chewie or Han. I have beaten rebel lists and imperial lists of all kinds on a regular basis. The Y-Wings use Ion Cannons to mess with movement. You can't shoot me if I am not in your fire arc.

The YT deals the killing blow. Try flying han Shoots first or Chewie with two Gold pilots or add Dutch if flying Chewie.

The worst ship to face is a YT as it has 360 fire and isn't overly worried abot Ions unless you drop him off the board or on an asteroid.

Firesprays are quite easy to drop two Ion token on. Then you use the YT to blast it's support ships. Y-Wings are about gaining position and they are the go to ship for that.

I suggest those who are using just theory go fly a couple in the right build and see what they can do. I don't leave home without mine.

Forum Math still?

Norsehound. I have been up to this point, primarily an Imperial player. I can't remember a time where a lone Y-wing has provided me with much trouble. This is not to say that a Y-wing can't give me trouble. I just make it a point to destroy it first for various reasons. I don't want to deal with ion cannons. Choosing where and how I move my ships is important to me. Ion cannons pose a threat to that and have to go. If I can quickly reduce the amount of ships that are able to shoot back at me, I will do it. He who shoots more often, generally wins. Also, losing a ship early in the match, especially one which is a damage sponge, can really get into the opponent's head. 23 points lost if it's a gold squad, 28, minimum if it's Dutch. That's quite a chunk. I don't go up against many Biggs players, so I can't factor him into my general plan to kill the y-wing first. I'm fine with shooting a Y-wing at range 3, too. Multiple Y-wings are a bit tougher, but not THAT much of a problem. Yeah, they may hit you with an ion cannon, but if you rushed in with your TIE, you've limited their movement options in return. You may have to sacrifice a ship, but if you've left other ships further out, you can take advantage of it, or may not even have a problem depending on firing order and possible overlaps.

In short, I'm not afraid of Y-wings, but they do tend to dictate my strategy until I can get rid of them.

just have to comment that a 1/16 chance over 4 shots doesn't equate to a 1/4 chance of that result happening.

I will say that my Y-wing lists are more consistant than my A-wing lists as every so often the A-wings just pop on turn 1-2 that is actually rather rare for the Y-wing…

A big part of this game is actually being able to consistantly survive the early turns of the game, I've found Y-wings do A-wings don't, and this is where lore of Varriables comes into play over lore of Averages…

Any experienced and skilled wargamer will tell you that you can't bank on the averages without a back up plan because sometimes the averages fail you, and that is the beauty of the Y-wing over the A-wing when we look at the variables….

akenatum said:

Lol, true. That sort of shorthand is exactly what I was trying to expose as inaccurate in all my posts. :-) The actual odds of surviving are (15/16 * 15/16 * 15/16 * 15/16) or 50625/65536, or 77.2%. Which means your A-Wing has a slightly better than 1/4 chance of avoiding a one-shot death in the first round of shooting. Still, I don't think that 2.2% really alters the point that I was making.

And as you said, the ability to consistently survive the early turns is a valuable skill that A-WIngs do not share.

For the Y-wing I have found there to be some key points to using one.

A) They don't evade. They traded evade for hull and shield toughness so that when you can land 8 hits on one you have the same probability of landing 3 hits on an evader.

B) They have 2 torpedoe slots that I rarely see get used to the max. Homing missiles are the top one shot weapon as you can still use your Target lock to affect the dice. Without affecting dice, torps just don't have the averages needed to be useful as a one shot weapon. This below average performance could be improved by making it easier to carry more to better the average. If I was going to add anything to the Y-wing, I would work on an upgrade that made it cheaper to carry 2 torpedoes. I was thinking of a dual mount for 1 point cost that added a second torpedo for free (so 2 torps costs 5 points instead of 8).

I like the ion turret and how it sets movement. That's the Y-wings bread and butter tactic. I played a nerf herder squad of 4 y's with turrets against Lando and Chewie. I won by escorting both off the board in due time. It's not a fast game but it was a fun one. Had 1 shield left on one Y and no damage to my last Y.

The tactics that work for the Y wing are Ion at range 2, ion or prime at range 1, and take the hit to get position at range 3 cause your prime just won't make it through. Once you ion, turn to persue and keep ioning (or let the X or A do it if you have it in your squad).

I would like to see new turret options that either allow more damage, or maybe one that affects actions instead of movement. How would that look if you lost the barrel roll, boost, evade and focus ability instead of movement on your next turn? Same effect, take an opponent out for a turn, just in a different way

If upgrades for the Y are considered, I would like for them to come out in a card expansion pack. They could do a rebel pack with 3 A, X, Y, YT (1 new named pilot, 1 new generic pilot, and 1 upgrade) for 12 cards and treat it like a booster pack.

What you don't hear a lot of talk about is that, with the YT-1300 turrets, the strategy is to close on the turret wielder en mass to get the kill. YT's and Y's have 360 arc fire and force their opponents to attack THEM. Boost becomes useless against a turreted ship.

I did'nt read the whole discussion - it would take me too much time since I hadn't visit the forums for a while, but my local group was aslo discussing the ways of improving Y-wing's somewhat lackluster performance.

I stand on the opinion that Y-wing with Ion Turret is still valuable and valid tournament choice; especially of it's Dutch (I'm his graet fan) Yet we had some ideas that we wanted to share with community in search for opinions.

1. Modification card, Y-wing Only, BOMBING DUTY, 1p.

Change any of yours [Torpedoes] icons to [Mines] icons.

2. Modification card, Y-wing Only, SECOND SEAT, 1p.

Add [Crew] icon to your Upgrade Bar.

3. Torpedoes, COMPACT PROTON TORPEDOES, 4p.

Attack: 4 Rng: 2-3 Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack. When attacking you may change one of your [Focus] results to [Hit] result. When you equip two copies of this card on a ship reduce the total cost of this cards by 3 and add another [Torpedo] icon to your ship's Upgrade Bar.

New better tanks came out so they will be played in preference over the older ones. Even an Ion Cannoned, Engine Upgraded Y-wing is not as good as any of the named YT-1300 pilots. The Tie Advance will be the same once the Tie Bomber comes out; the Tie Bomber will provide a cheaper missile boat. But does that mean these ships are done in normal play. No!

Players may bring fewer unnamed Y-wings to the table, but named pilots like Dutch are just to good to not build lists that include him. Although the YT-1300 is a better tank, it can't equip an Ion Cannon Turret. One of the great advantages of the 360 degree turret is that you can keep your opponent from having a shot back at you while they are force to move a slow straight forward. That is the real power of the Y-wing. It may not be able to do a lot of damage, but it strangles your opponent's ability to form effective strategy.

The Y-wing may have its faults, but it is still a strong fighter when you utilize it to its strengthes. To many players refuse to play this tank because of its faults and fail to understand how to use it for its strengthes. This is fine with me because I hate being in a game where up to 2/3 of my force is locked down in the movement phase and may not have shots in the assault phase.