So, some people seem to take "Sure to shake up the metagame" in the latest FFG wave announcement to mean it's evidence of a new third faction. This is on top of the speculation people have been raising ever since wave 2, because I guess people really want to fly mercenary pilots or hutts or something.

In Germaniac's thread I asked some questions which were basically ignored, but I'm going to ask this here in a seperate thread to hit the nail on the head:

Justify a Third Faction, and please with something more than, "Because it's thematic!"

Let's think about this. What is a third faction going to bring to gameplay that simply putting the new ships in two other factions wouldn't? The only thing that comes to mind is creating restrictions for tournament lists and denying fighters to the other factions. But beyond Xizor in the Virago as an ace pilot I don't see many possible entries for a mercenary/black sun/hutt faction.

Some say re-print Slave-1/Falcon as the third faction because they're obviously independent of the rebels and Empire. But to me this seems like an unecessary duplication of effort, when it's much much easier to fold these ships into the Rebellion/Empire duality. I know, Vader and Xizor hate one another intensely, but I think both of them would choose to shoot at Rebels first before taking shots at one another. Besides, if the Force isn't represented in gameplay, petty rivalries like that I don't think warrant credence either.

I suppose I'm just weary of all these cries for a third faction without any logic to support why it would be a good thing for gameplay. So I'm asking those wanting a third faction… what does it do for the game?

…. because everyone wants to play with an "ugly" and or a coral skipper (sarcasm)!

I'm already working on building a 3rd faction with custom ships for Pirates in scenario games.

Obviously you are not a miniature player and are instead in this becuase you love Star Wars or FFG games.

What a Third faction brings is diversity and keeps players from dropping out of the game becuase every game will begin to look like the last game. Imagine any other miniature game, that is still around, trying to keep the gamers interested if it is nothing but red vs blue forever. The game would die a quick death and become an obscure game you could pick up from ebay for cheap.

I play a lot of games and I can tell you the game would not survive if it doesn't grow.

It seems rather likely that we will get a third faction (at least) some day…

However, they've announced only four models. Unless they don't plan on giving us the B-Wing or TIE Bomber in wave 3 (which would torque off a lot of people), this release isn't a new faction. You can't launch a new faction with only 2 ships at this point, as it wouldn't be nearly balanced enough against the other two factions that would then have 5 different units each.

I have to agree with beatty. I'm a long time time 40k player and one of things I think that has kept that game so popular even with overpriced models and frankly a couple of really bad rules systems over the years is the wide diversity of different forces to play. Even the PC games made use of pirates, neutral (non-rebel) forces, and the like. The more open we can keep this, I think the more the game will flourish. Maybe this will have greater appeal to those of us EU fans, but show this to a group of 40k or Warmachine players, and you'll see players looking excitedly at the wide array of ships they want beyond the two factions from the movies. IMO, the generic Firesprays and YT-1300s should be useable in either fleet. Besides, if a group only wants Empire/Alliance, then that's all they have to buy.

Aridia 97th said:

I agree with that the game needs to move in another direction, and a 3rd, 4th or even 5th faction would be great. I personally just like messing with these threads. However everytime you suggest on one of these threads that the game needs to branch out into the EU or Prequels you get a half dozen or so people who all of a sudden work for FFG or Disney Legal (sarcasm) and tell you what the liscense for this game includes even though no such statement has ever been made official. Then try suggesting something bigger then the YT and you get another group of people who try to get a mob mentality going about how bigger ships will just never work, without even playtesting it or seeing what a point structure would be. Suggest a ground based expansion (such as an AT-AT) you get another group who will automtically disown FFG if that ever happens. Also to keep it only 2 factions make sure to suggest that the Z-95 headhunter should be a rebel ship, because Rogue Squadron used 4 of them once, meanwhile clones used them in the clone wars and Mara Jade used a modified one when she was first introduced in the EU as the Emperor's Hand.

FFG is not new to the gaming scene. I'm sure they understand that they are going to upset some people over the time they have the liscense. However for the game to move forward (and for them to make money) something will get shooken up. If waive 3 remains Rebel/Imperial great, but realize you are out of ships of this size come waive 4.

The big thing is, as several have pointed out, variety. Factions generally have broad playstyles - in X-wing, Imperials are generally cheap, dodgy, and fragile, while the Rebels are more offensively minded, tough, and expensive. When you consider a build, you have to consider what you face, including all the possibilities. More factions = more playstyles = more to consider.

I actually think it's possible that we'll see a new faction rather than the B-wing/Bomber. I have no doubts we'll be getting them soon either way, but I can see a solid argument that a new faction, with 4 new ships, would bring more depth to the game than the bombers would.

All these posts about a third faction seem to buzz around it without quite pinpointing what it will probably be . I don't expect it to be a third "side," I expect it to be NEUTRAL. Sure, you could make a squad out of it exclusively, but you could also drop some of them into either one of the existing factions. Slave-I and the Millenium Falcon are obvious contenders, but so too are ships like the Z-95, Starwing, YT-2400, Rihkxyrk ("pirate") Assault Fighter and so on. The addition of such a faction would allow for a LOT of diversity in a game which, as has been mentioned, has limited creative opportunities.

And with this notion in mind, yeah - two ships in the next wave would actually be just fine (if that's what FFG does).

As most ppl already postet here: Diversity of playstyles is the main argument for a thrid faction.

There are, as alyways in Tournycapable games, maxed out Tournylists to play against Rebels/Imps that work fine, but could crash and burn if another, hypothetical, faction has a complety different playing style. You'll move some of the "Winning a game" back from the listmaking to the table.

Also, for non-tourny gamers, more diversity s more fun.

Beatty said:

I've burned enough money on Warhammer 40,000 to be at least familiar with the hobby and yes, recognizing that game's need for multiple factions.

If diversity is the main reason to warrant other factions, then I say each side has enough toys in it now (and will in the future with subsequent expansions) that diversity within each faction is already quite possible. Games won't feel same-y unless you and your opponent insist on running the same lists. Besides, you can switch it up and fly mirror matches as well, or mix the two ships without needing an additional faction. Nothing mechanically in the rules prevents you from flying X-Wings with TIE Fighters.

The Empire has enough aces that it can fly few-ship elite builds, and while the Rebels can't swarm like the Empire can, they might be soon (the popular candidate for this being the Z-95). Both sides can more or less fly stratgies of the other and there are varieties of lists that are already possible in the builds.

Besides, for the sake of discussion, Can someone come up with a convincing arguement of how a third faction would be different from the Empire and Rebellion? I'd be more convinced of the need for other factions if one of these discussions can say just HOW it would be done. Tell me about how they would be balanced. Tell me what their ships are like and what their synergies are. Tell me how they'd be remarkable from playing the Rebellion or the Empire. Something more than just "because the hutts don't fly with the Empire." Well, Fett doesn't fly with the Empire either but there he is. Why should it be any other way?

Warhammer and it's ilk have multiple factions because they've been part of the lore forever, yes? By contrast the only significant powers in the Galactic Civil war were the Rebellion and the Empire. The hutts hardly had an appearance in the films and there was no evidence of crime cartells or anything of the sort except in the Expanded universe. Besides, I would say none of those third parties had as much impact as the two sides of the Galactic Civil War.

I'm just tired of people calling for a third faction without putting some thought into the matter to prove it should be done. Two factions is both basic to the theme and to gameplay and I think that's enough until the Seperatists and Republic are inevitably depicted.

I'm not convinced that "because Warhammer needs new factions to remain relevant" is a compelling argument for why X-wing is likely to get a new faction. Isn't one of the reasons people are jumping into X-wing precisely because it doesn't have the level of complexity and expense that other miniature games do? I do not expect Fantasy Flight will try to closely mimic games that are structured so differently and appeal to such a different crowd; I would rather hope they find innovative ways to make X-wing unique and continue to appeal to newcomers and old hats alike.

Besides, for the sake of discussion, Can someone come up with a convincing arguement of how a third faction would be different from the Empire and Rebellion? I'd be more convinced of the need for other factions if one of these discussions can say just HOW it would be done. Tell me about how they would be balanced. Tell me what their ships are like and what their synergies are. Tell me how they'd be remarkable from playing the Rebellion or the Empire. Something more than just "because the hutts don't fly with the Empire." Well, Fett doesn't fly with the Empire either but there he is. Why should it be any other way?

Warhammer and it's ilk have multiple factions because they've been part of the lore forever, yes? By contrast the only significant powers in the Galactic Civil war were the Rebellion and the Empire. The hutts hardly had an appearance in the films and there was no evidence of crime cartells or anything of the sort except in the Expanded universe. Besides, I would say none of those third parties had as much impact as the two sides of the Galactic Civil War.

I'm just tired of people calling for a third faction without putting some thought into the matter to prove it should be done. Two factions is both basic to the theme and to gameplay and I think that's enough until the Seperatists and Republic are inevitably depicted.

What about groups that were not depicted in the 7 hours of movie time? I can think of several groups that would awesome/game changing aspects to the game that are not Hutt/Smugglers that could bring a lot of fun for some of us casual players.

If you are looking for game changing ideas these could be done, Ssi-Ruuk Imperium ships plus the ability to entech a pilot with one shield left from another faction. To play against the Ssi-Ruuk you could make a squad that combines both imperial and alliance pilots. Yuushan Vong you could build small ships with powerful attack and 1 shield that you could only take down with some sort of missle/torpedo. Again to play against them you could make a squad of any faction. These are just two basic ideas without much thought that could really shake this game up. How would you like to be flying with the Falcon only to have a Ssi-Ruuk entech it and make it part of their squad? Is that game changing enough?

Also just because the Galactic Civil War was between the Rebellion/Imperials, it does not mean there weren't powerful neutral factions such as The Mandalrians, Corelians and Chiss around. It's not like they took a timeout between Episode 4-6 and left the galaxy.

None of us work for FFG. Time will tell what they ultimately do, but for this game to go past this year some new element for the game will have to be introduced

Well I am not going to try and prove anything if showing examples of how game experience is improved in other games by having more than two factions is just going to be ignored so quickly.

So I am just going to say this. You have no control over what FFG is going to do in the near future and it would be very profitable for them to continue to expand this game. It is basic bussiness. When I was a Twenty something I loved to come up with well thought out one sided arguments but realized that as I got older that one sided vision is so short sighted.

If you don't like the idea of a third faction that is your right. Others do and that is fine. But asking others to defend their point of view and then ignor their responses based on past experience and not theory based on personal desire is just a trap.

Don't ask others for their point of view just to turn around and blow it off becuase it doesn't work for you. That is trollish.

I don't think there is a reason why we should have a third faction. It's not necessary. It's not needed. But with that said, I want it. And alot other people would agree with me. I think a pirate faction would be easy to do, it could include one expansion with nothing but pilot cards for existing ships. And for all of us who love the theme of the game, especially us casual players, it would be welcomed.

Now that doesn't mean that FFG will do it. A couple weeks ago I would have said, of course they will eventually, because they know that most people will buy would love to have it, and that will make them more money. And then they released the space tiles, and I realized that they are not as in tune with the "wants" of their fans. But you never know, it could happen anyway.

The idea of variety I think is key.

The problem is that more options for the sake of options will likely add nothing to the game. It doesn't matter if there are twenty different factions in a game, if 2-3 consistently put up the best results they will be the ones played. Most any competitive game is like this, from MMO's with builds/classes, to CCGS with decks/archetypes. Often, this ends up in a cycle of releases where the best faction/archetype switches, but at any one time, there are only a few viable options for the competitive player.

As much as the 100 point limit in the game seems burdensome, I have come to think that it is one of the aspects that allows for variety within the existing two factions. The very fact that I can't run Han with a slew of smaller ships makes me choose. I have not seen a compelling reason as to how a new faction would change the actual variety in viable builds.

I suppose one could argue that exclusivity of stats, ships, and upgrades would allow new directions of play, but there are ways of doing the same thing in the existing 2 faction system.

IG-58 said:

Honestly, out of everything I've read, this post (which has been largely ignored) makes the most sense. I can't quote canon, I can't speculate on ships, but this could be the "meta changing" option that has people excited. So they give us the B-Wing and Bomber that everybody expects. Then there could be two "neutral" ships, with pilots for each side (say a scrub and a named for each) OR truly neutral pilots that could be used by either side. This would technically give each side THREE new ships instead of two! I think having ships/pilots that could be used by either side would really mix thing up, perhaps even moreso than the explosion of squad diversity we saw with wave 2. Plus there's nothing to say they couldn't throw in neutral pilots for existing ships like the YT and Firespray. Honestly a third standalone faction doesn't seem viable at this point in time, but a neutral option to be used by either side makes a lot of sense!

Norsehound said:

I think thematic is reason enough. X-wing exists purely because it is thematic. X-wing have what developers call assiociated game mechanics, which basically means that the rules are written to fit the background theme. Which in turn means that it is the theme and background of the game that dictates what should and shouldn't be included. The question is, do the developers of x-wing consider the EU or just the OT as the theme and background?

On another note - let's be empirical: FFG tends to include another (or more) faction(s) in later expansion(s). I can't think of a single FFG game with expansions that didn't do this. (Barring Battlestar Galactica).

esmolinski said:

Also, this.

tinnitus said:

I think people get too caught up in what they want to realize what FFG needs to do to make a profit off the liscense. Lets for arguement sake say you do get the B-Wing / Z-95 / Tie Bomber / Lambda class shuttle. What does that leave you with for waive 4, which I'm assuming if waive 3 is realeased in the summertime we will have just in time for Christmas? Let's say FFG tries keeping ship size the same size or maybe a couple more large ships, at this point you would have to hit the EU pretty hard. Again for arguements sake lets say K-Wing / E-Wing / Tie Phantom / Tie Defender, with the possibility of a YT-2400 and something more to the scale for imperial to the yt-1300 (you can't tell me the firespray is a big ship at only 2/3 the size of a yt-1300). At this point FFG would pretty much be forced to go other factions, or a neutral faction (which as I read this thread I become more interested with).

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but me personally I want as much variety as possible. It keeps games fresh and possibilites endless.

I do not believe you will see a third faction. The game is divided into light side and dark side. What good would a third faction be? My personal opinion is that the next four ships will be;

B-wing

TIEbomber

Outrider

Rouge Shadow

I would rather swap the big ships for a z-95 and a defender. That's just me.

if you want to argue that FFG is hinting about changing the meta of the game, first they said the same about wave two. Second all you have to do to change the meta is add more options, like a few new torp options. Lets say one that ignores shields? Also I think they are going to push this game hard and fast from here on out before the mouse comes after them.

I remember at worlds last year when I opened my Falcon. I saw the 360 and the Assault Missile and I knew the game would never be the same. I don't think they will add a faction. A new mechanic yes. Also about Capitol ships. After talking to MLG stores they all said the same thing, where the hell am I going to stock something that big? I cant afford to stock capitol ships. Also how is a Capitol ship going to fit in a 3x3 area?

I also think one way to change the meta is to eliminate factions for tourney play and say you can fly whatever ships you want.

It is two weeks away and I will wait and see but honestly I think this debate is pointless right now. I think we should wait till the fourth and then praise or complain after we know more.

Picasso said:

I find it cute that you find this debate pointless and yet you are debating it.

I realized it half way through the sentence. Lol. I figured Forget it and away I went. It is a pointless debate tho.

Why not toss in Jedi fighters, V-Wings, maybe even *ducking already* the Ebon Hawk from KoToR. I'd really enjoy fielding a Rogue Shadow for that matter.