I find myself absolutely stunned that there's so much resistance to this idea. Every competitive card game that uses an invitational structure has standardization of tournaments, save for apparently the Regional Tournaments for Fantasy Flight Games. That standardization gives players reassurance that tournaments will be run in a fair and consistent manner.

@ flightmaster101:

Your suggestion of what FFG could do to ensure tournament consistency was inefficient and having played in several organized events for different card games, I have never seen a company take such a path. If your intent was to say "FFG does not seem to share your concern," then you should have said as much directly, because it is very easy to interpret your statement as Rob did - "Since they're not doing this, nothing should be done."

And your last statement about nothing needing to be done suggests that you mean to say "if people don't like how this game's organized play is run, it will die and that will be that," which I cannot fathom at all being a better solution than the standardization of tournaments.

D.Knight Sevus said:

1. There is a logical leap from what I said to that conclusion.

2. I never said the game dying was a solution, again you made a leap I did not make. It is mere reality, if it becomes so corrupt no one will play then no one will play.

How does Hasbro deal with this issue? Magic, Pokemon, yu go oh(sp?) are the top dogs by community size right (I'm asking I really don't know)? FFG should emulate them. What you don't want is so much beurocracy it drives people away. On the other hand, as Rob has alluded to, you don't want so much corruption it drives people away. I happen to be fine with how it is, but I haven't been cheated. I run a straight Swiss, as if it was a chess tournament. If you have a number of rounds = log2(number of players) a clear winner will present themselves in a win/ loss game. Adding draws does mess that up, even in a 3-1-0 w-t-l system. I'm sure somebody will figure a system out, just like the Swiss system came out of chess. Like I said could be a business opportunity for someone mathematically inclined.

The problem with it is, it's not a true invitional tournament - you just get free entry and a bye during the first round to a world tournament that EVERYONE is able to play in. If they made it an actual invite only, I think stricter rules would NEED to be in place, but as of right now, I just don't see them taking some of the control away from the TOs.

I think on points 1 and 2 we're talking past each other, so I'm going to drop them for now.

Regarding what Wizards of the Coast does with Magic: The Gathering…

Official M:TG tournaments are managed by the DCI (Duelist Convocation International), which while I'm not certain how exactly it classifies in relation to WotC, acts to organize tournaments and enforce rules both on a large and minor scale. To that end, both Tournament Organizers and players are required to register with the DCI, and if any party violates the rules set down by the DCI, their registration (and thus eligibility to organize/participate in DCI events) can be revoked. The DCI also handles Magic's Judge program, which is a primarily volunteer force that is nonetheless tested on their rules knowledge to ensure that accurate rulings can be given. WotC's other active Trading Card Game, Kaijudo, also uses the DCI structure for tournament organization, as did Pokémon when it was being produced by WotC.

Similarly, Konami maintains an organized play branch for Yu-Gi-Oh! responsible for TO and player registration, creating and maintaining tournament procedure and penalty guideline documents, and the upkeep of the Judge program. While I haven't played in Pokémon Organized Play events, from what I've gleaned on message boards discussing the game, their organized play structure is very similar.

So, the example set by the industry leaders is as follows. Create an Organized Play department that requires registration of both Tournament Organizers and players to participate in sanctioned events, which can be revoked in the case of refusal to follow the tournament standards; actually create the tournament standards for both event proceedure and penalty guidelines; and maintain an organized volunteer Judge program that can provide official rulings on-site at tournament venues.

This may have been more of what you intended by a "Travelling Tournament Organization Squad," but Tournament Organizer would still be an outside volunteer position rather than the responsibility of FFG employees - just with the understanding that failing to conform to official tournament policy may result in losing the ability to host sanctioned tournaments, and with the event in violation likely declared invalid.

JMCB said:

JMCB said:

But what is the downside to basic tournament structure? You'd be completely correct if it was a full fledge invitaional, they'd need revamp thier Organized Play to execute that. I'm not really suggesting anything that extreme though. Just the basic level or organization a Regional event requires.

Yes it is taking a small amount of control away from TOs, which isn't really a bad thing. Not all TOs (if just venue employees) have neccesarily any familarity with the game, and yet they have to decide how to format a tournament? That's a little bit of an unfair expectation to put on venues. Frankly, TOs probably shouldn't have the full control in regards to a Regional event. I'm not talking about formating local events, there is no need or reason to do that. But these aren't local events, thier suppose to be Regional events. Thier goal is ultimately to bring in varying playgroups that might not otherwise play together, and also promote thier World Championships. When you are bringing in multiple play groups you need to set some expecations for those traveling in. If you are attempting to promote your World Championships you should have a standard otherwise you just make your Organized Play look disorganized.

Clearly these LCGs aren't to the level of certain CCG and thier Organized Play systems, and that's not really the point of what I'm bringing up. No need to go to that level, but just some basic organization.

You could just used the standard swiss that other card games use and promote it as the standard, especially since you said yourself TOs are not sure at times what to do.

8 or Less Players - 3 Rounds / No Cut (Average Time about Three Hours)
9 - 16 Players - 4 Rounds - Top 4 (Average Time about Seven Hours)
17 - 32 Players - 5 Rounds - Top 8 (Average Time about Nine Hours and Twenty Mins)
33 - 64 Players - 6 Rounds - Top 16 (Average Time about 11 Hours and 40 Mins)

However, as you may see, the tournaments can be VERY lengthy at 70 min rounds a piece.

JMCB said:

Agreed,but until you get up past 32, you still aren't into anything yet unwieldy. And that is where nearly all regionals will fall under. And there is always the ability to cap participation ahead of time. And to be fair if you sign up to host a Regional event you should be willing to commit a day to it. Hearing of the Netrunner tournament that capped participation with no annoucnement and just cut the tournament short from what even the TO annoucned is really going to turn off perspective players.

For some perspective I ran the NJ regional that had 18 particpants. During the tournament set up the venue owners orginainlly stated that they just wanted to do 4 rounds of Swiss, and that was it. This was when we had about 15 signed up. I had to explain to them with the point system you are risking having to decide the winner based on tiebreakers, not to mention that the Top 8 (for the mats) would almost certainly have people miss the cut from the same scoring group. Now my venue owners are awesome people and understood, but that not going to happen across the board. There is no requirement that people running these events have enough background in the game to make choices about how to format an event. Though the current rules gives suggestions, its a bit ambiguous for offical FFG sponsered and prized events.

JMCB said:

I think this only needs to be carried out until after the first round of major tournaments (regionals, Worlds) then revert to a 60 minute tournament structure.