Looking thro the cybernetics part of the rule book last night I cane across the super-duper cortex upgrade, which (a) gives unnatural intelligence(x2) and functions like a cogitator. (a 40k style computer)

My question is what are the limits of this cyber brain?

I'd say it's mainly a fast calculator and database. From the descriptions in the books i got the impression that imperial cogitators are actually less advanced then todays computers (at least when it comes to software and flexibility, their cogitators might be faster). Shadowrun style augmented reality, seems to be restricted to improved aiming and even that is incredibly rare.

Also keep in mind that even the most rudimentary AI is prohibit, hell one of todays navigation systems would probably mark you as a heretic. So you will probably be lucky if you can give your cogitator simply if ... then instructions.

I'd say that the Unnatural Intelligence comes down to the fact that the cybernetic brain aids recall and storage of information. If I gave one to a PC, I'd say that regardless of the quality of the implant and even though it functions as a cogitator and could in theory have data stored on it before implantation, they couldn't know things that they dont already know.

In addition to obvious stuff like fast calculation (logic and other mental tasks would be performed super-quick) and superb memory, don't forget that some things are based off your intelligence bonus, e.g. healing. So the x2 multiplier applies there.

I'd say it's mainly a fast calculator and database. From the descriptions in the books i got the impression that imperial cogitators are actually less advanced then todays computers (at least when it comes to software and flexibility, their cogitators might be faster). Shadowrun style augmented reality, seems to be restricted to improved aiming and even that is incredibly rare.

I doubt that. While it's not exactly likely that a cogitator is a decked-out games platform, it's most certainly capable of most feats that could be done by modern computers (possibly apart from cool graphics). The less advanced things are the dataslates, which are essentially modern PDAs with a few functions taken out.

Also keep in mind that even the most rudimentary AI is prohibit, hell one of todays navigation systems would probably mark you as a heretic. So you will probably be lucky if you can give your cogitator simply if ... then instructions.

Tell that to the Machine Spirit of a Land Raider which is capable of driving the vehicle on its own. It's very unclear what exactly is prohibited, but I'd draw the line at non-primitive learning algorithms and trying to ape a sentient being in more than a very specialised field.

I'd say that the Unnatural Intelligence comes down to the fact that the cybernetic brain aids recall and storage of information. If I gave one to a PC, I'd say that regardless of the quality of the implant and even though it functions as a cogitator and could in theory have data stored on it before implantation, they couldn't know things that they dont already know.

Actually, they would know things they didn't already know - the Unnatural Intelligence means every test based on Int is at +10, resulting in the PC succeeding at more lore checks than before.

Looking thro the cybernetics part of the rule book last night I cane across the super-duper cortex upgrade, which (a) gives unnatural intelligence(x2) and functions like a cogitator. (a 40k style computer)

My question is what are the limits of this cyber brain?

They're most likely even better than your normal cogitator - these things as they're presented in the book almost stem from the Dark Age of Technology, with the secrets of their manufacture being known only to very few Magoi.

I'd assume the cogitator stores a multitude of informations downloadable from datacrypts. Thus, many int based tests will no longer show whether the information is known to the character but whether he can find it in the database of his implant.

Additionally, he'll have access to an amazing amount of completely useless information that you can hand him at any notice (or that the player can make up when it's really unimportant stuff). Caractacus Mott and his bouts of logorrhea ("So, we're going to buy some icecream. Shall we get some for you?"-"Sure. Did you know that icecream is sold in 32385 registered places in this planet, of which 2/3 only provide five or less flavours? Assuming availability is no concern, the most popular flavour is cherry with chocolate sprinkles, with vanilla coming a close second. The blue-greenish Chaos Special on the other hand had a surge in popularity seventeen years ago before being banned by order of the Inquisition after purveyors started mutating...") from the Ciaphas Cain series should provide a good example.

Cifer said:

You said it, it's a Machine Spirit not an AI ;-). According to the creed every machine has one, some are just more developed. Yes it quit probably is an AI, but as nobody (with the possible exception of a few high level Tech Magi) knows this, it isn't prohibited. This could very well be the reason for the believe in Machine Spirits, the Adeptus Mechanicus wanting to keep a few AIs. Unfortunately the kept the secret to well and now the believe it themselves, or so it would seem, it could also just be good acting.

The problem with this line of thought is that nothing remains forbidden because canonically every machine has a machine spirit - which, if sufficiently advanced, could be an AI. My idea has the advantage of placing a limit at a point which is somewhat logical (machines improving themselves in a non-trivial manner means Iron Men sooner or later) and sound according to the 40k Lore (the highest known example of a machine spirit is the self-driving Land Raider).

Cifer said:

Actually, Land Raiders sit on the lower end of the scale of actual computational machine spirits (that is, a discrete component that acts as a machine's "brain"), alongside Thunderhawks. Starships and Titans tend to have far more sophisticated ones. In all cases, the Machine Spirit can control the object it's housed within... but only in a very simplistic fashion, and is normally used to supplement and assist the living crew. Older Machine Spirits develop quirks and tendancies that often come to characterise the vehicle or machine.

The distinction is that those Machine Spirits are more akin to the AI of enemies in a computer game than actual AI - they aren't self-aware, sapient intellects, but rather a set of preprogrammed responses to external stimuli. At best, it's a set of animal instincts that the crew of a starship, war machine or vehicle must cooperate with and direct to their advantage... at the other end of the scale, it's an operating system with a few automated commands. The truth is likely somewhere between the two.

Remember, AI are illegal because of an agreement between the Emperor and the Adeptus Mechanicus. It's a law as old as the Imperium. Given that the Emperor (who isn't exactly unknowledgeable when it comes to science and technology) still permitted the use of Land Raiders, Thunderhawks, Titans and various other machines that incorporate Machine Spirits, then clearly the distinction must lay somewhere else.

As for the 'spirits of the machines' believed to be in many other devices - I'm pretty certain the Mechanicus know the difference. The Machine Spirit of a Titan is an actual component, a device that aids the Princeps, Moderati and other crew in the operation of the War Engine. The machine spirit of a lasgun is an anthropomorphisation of the machine's function, a simplistic meme (and one none-too-dissimilar for the human tendancy to shout at cars and computers and other machines when they don't work like we want them to) used to explain the importance of care and maintenance and proper operation to people who don't really need to know the details of the machines they're working with (for example: "Clean this part regularly with this degreaser, and use that lubricant on it every day, and the machine spirit will be pleased and continue to allow you to use it" and "this loading rig is a cantankerous, stubborn old thing, but reliable - it takes a bit of coaxing to get the best out of her, but she doesn't sieze up like the ones in docking bay XIII")

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Keep in mind also that servitors have organics parts specifically for this reason. To keep from having to use AI, which is forbidden. Another reason there are hundreds of servitors slaved to titans and starships. They are the mainly the brains behind the operations. If they used the same type of AI used today, they wouldnt need armies of servitors.

'Machine Spirits' is a loose term that is superstition at best. Its a way for the Mechanicum to keep control, and themselves in power. 40k is considered the 'Dark Age of Technology' where things are used but not comprehended.

It's a grey area.

AI is forbidden.

Genetics involving creating new critters or manipulating DNA for non-medical reasons is forbidden.

Strangely enough, hybrids are not forbidden. Genetically engineered infants implanted with cogitators and Suspensors are Cherubim. A man with no will and a lot of augments becomes a Servitor. Point is, they're both loopholes in the Omnissian Theology. A Tech Priest with 96% body replacement, including all but minute portions of his medula oblongata, is debatably standing on the line of Heresy, but technically Orthodox because it still contains biological material...

There's a lot of loopholes and contradictions. GW did this on purpose. Jervis Johnson told me so himself in an email.

The definition in 40k seems to be AI would be a machine that can think for itself and learn. Not sure if the self-driving Land Raider qualifies there.

VarniusEisen said:

To be quite honest, I much prefer how Inquisitor handled this subject. How many implants you could have was determined by how many MIU (Mind Impulse Units) you had installed. MIU's basically allow your meat-brain to interact and control your metal components and other things like Servitors, Servo-Skulls, Cherubim... Originally (in WH40KRT) they worked on every human's low-grade psychic ability, however a better explanation for the 21st Century would be to analogize it to BlueTooth.

Jlid said:

Actually the "Dark Age of Technology" refers to the era before the Imperium, when the technology of mankind was at it's zenith. It's called "dark" because in the imperium science is considered dangerous and "over reliance" on technology abhorrent. Also because they lacked the light of the emperor and used a lot of technology.

Contradictions are btw pretty human. If aliens ever find us, it's debatable if they would consider us intelligent live ;-).

As a software developer I just have to chime in...

Sentient AI is the prohibited heretek the Adeptus Mechanicus will prosecute with a vengeance. Just like the sentient AI that's depicted in the Horus Heresy, that thought for itself and wanted to kill and murder. The main problem seems to be that a sentient AI is too easily corruptible by Chaos.

The type of AI that's currently available (and in the foreseeable future) is quite common and pedestrian in the WH40k. Cogitators in WH40k are at least as powerful as current computers, most likely much more advanced given some of the feats they accomplish.