I've had great sucess using Flying Edge mostly off of chaos, but life has a suprisingly high amout of momentum gain with Kunai and Proffesional Soldier

Yea I wasn't looking for a OHKO tool in it, just something solid and painful for a 4/3 attack. Only real flaw in the card is that 3-mid, which I'm not sure either Earth or Life can respectfully boost without getting fancy or overextending.

I'm enjoying Earth right now, I fell back in love with ::Sagat:: thanks to building him for the Earth Patch event. The reason I stopped liking Sagat was because I wasn't running Clean Rematch, which speeds up an Earth deck so (need your Ways or Punishment or End it All? Here you go!).

The clear Earth kill turn for me, which is what I'm using in my Patch deck (the Patch is on Friday) is as follows.

1 - First F with End it All. This prevents opponents from using their Holding Grounds/Tendon Strengths/anything with an R on it.
2 - Commit any problem foundations with Program Malfunction. Look out for E's like Prince of Darkness/Awakening/Battle Prowess, as obviously R's are already out of the question.
3 - Play a Tiger Fury/High Plasma Beam/something that will kill fast
4 - As your first E, use Ways of Punishment to discard them down to 1 card.
5 - Get rid of the final card using Red Gi/Glare from the Abyss
6 - E with all your damage pumps
7 - ????
8 - Profit!

I'm trying to see any major flaws in the plan, but so far it doesn't look like there are any - can anyone see what I can't?

The fact that End it All is VERY easy to stop and the fact that Earth doesn't have enough committal power to eat all those enhances.

What does earth currently have for card pool recursion and card draw (block 2 or 3)?

Earth dosent have much if any recursion, let alone card pool recursion. The fact is though it dosent need it too much. It's a mistake to apply the current games paradigms to this symbol as it's not ment to do recursion tricks.

As for Draw, DBK is a draw as is Fantasy shop and Tag Along is a bit of everything. Kyoshiro is nasty if you can pull off the +5 cards without getting it tagged. That being said Gen is 7/24 with a commit get back a foundation, Leona is 8 HS, Iori is a 7HS with big damage possibilities, Sagat is 6 but his ability can make up for it.

The honest truth is that not all symbols need the draw ability. Earth has a fair amount of ways to turn off prevention and wipe a hand and kill in like 2 attacks. Also since earth can run the same infinites that everyone else is using it can handle foundations no problem (well maybe some problem but no more than any one else).

The Thirst Always Wins lets you get a ton of momentum if you want it for something and you can push one medium-sized move through first. Inner Turmoil + TTAW in Kyoshiro could do some big things, with a chaos splash for Red Lotus and whatever.

quit talking about promo gen people HE'S MY SECRET!!

but yeah he's awesome off earth with his recursion. i'll prolly be playing him next season tri-symbol alot. SO FEAR MY DIVERSITY IF YOU WANT TO PLAY GEN!! (haha j/k but seriously LET ME HAVE HIM, HE'S MINE)

BlindProphet said:

Has anyone looked at Double Grounder recently? It's an awesome card. 12 damage with the potential to be 14 with 1 momentum requirement? Love it. Think Dancing Battle Kabuki, then 2 of them, not least with someone like Zangief or even promo Demitri. I mean, I know people say Demitri's nothing special, but the damage output you'd get out of something like that with him would be pretty monstrous. Shadow Strike has an attack half which is a 3CC Multiple attack as well. Yeah, it's nothing special, but with Zangief you're looking at 8 damage a piece for 1 momentum and 5 difficulty. I don't know about you guys, but that sounds pretty good to me.

I'll use Shadow Strike again as an example of how I think Earth draw power should work. Earth isn't about draw power, it never has been. I like that Shadow Strike is indirect draw power. I think it's a little harsh on its cost, in that it only works once. I think I'd like to see a card that did something similar to it, but had a higher cost and the ability to be used more than once. Twelves' binary style foundations are another good example. It's just a shame that it was restricted by resource (By the way, LMAO/EMAO is amazingly awesome during the patch tournaments). I think that because Earth is all about the aggression that it would be out of context to give it draw power. Things like Shadow Strike and the binary foundations I think there should be more of.

In the way of momentum gain, I think that in order to be flavoursome, I think that momentum should come from attacking, but should have bonuses for doing so. A good example of this (that doesn't even have Earth) is Proven. I think that Proven is a very underrated card in all instances, and before Lord Of The Makai came out, I used it in my All decks. It would make quite a nice addition if Earth had something similar to it.

In general, Earth has never been my strong point, it concentrates far too hard on bunkering down and reducing loads of damage without doing anything else. I'm sure I'm wrong and tha Earth is a good resource for other reasons, but I think, much like what Fire should be, that it should be more aggressive and less, well, dull

Meh to Double Grinder. I'd much rather have something like Moon Sault Slayer. 2H4 multiple 2. In the end being the same damage base damage, but off zone. Its easier to play...and has a better effect for a earth character. With Earth's sporadic momentum gain the effect there on Double Grinder isn't all that great.

Not saying Double Grinder isn't good...just doesn't, to me, compare to the far more consistent Moon Sault Slayer.

Scott Gaines said:

Vik built him this week Scooter you got a diveristy player now in the indian

Scott Gaines said:

i don't think Akuma aggree with you...(no, i ain't talking about the character card...)

Moonsault slayer is great, but double grounder I think is potentially better. Look at it this way:

In order to fully multiple the attack and strip your opponents hand without ending turn:

Moonsault 12 damage- DBK (2 momentum) + Ways of punishment + 3 life
Grounder 12 damage (potentially 14) - Ways of punishment + KOF2006 (strip last card + momentum for multiple)

Double grounder is 1 more diff to play compaired to Monsault with a DBK in the Card pool but also is only 2 cards in the pool as opposed to 4 which means its much easier to play more attacks or genocide on your attacks. Needing a DBK and Moonsault in hand means you have 2 less cards in hand for ways as opposed to 1 for Ways of Punishment as well. The difference is rather close so honestly i think they are both viable attacks in the end.

That being said theres plenty of cards that require no momentum that can easily do more damage and have other applications.

Big Cyclone - 10 damage, anti discard, +1 high block
Chaos Flare - Potentially game winning damage, +1 mid block (+0 against ranged), only 3 difficulty, can bring you into despration for cheaper kill afterwards
Reverse Flayer - I think we all know what this is capible of. Earth has many 10 damage attacks.
Gravity storm - Poor mans CSS, but still potentially fatal and game winning
Unholy Terror - 10 damage throw that can strip momentum
Self-diagnosis Program - 3 control 10 damage with life gain as an enhance.
Midnight Pleasure - 7 speed 10 damage powerful and momentum strip
**True Shrike Dash** - Potentially loopable 8 damge throw that clears itself from the card pool

I have played all these cards to some degree of sucuess, even against spike builds and such.

"A ton of 6 check foundations - Blinding rage, end it all, Will of Iron, Speak the Truth"

Only 1 of which is good, go on...

"3 different 0 drop foundations - DBK, The Tae Kwon Do Zephyr, Human weapon of steel"

Only 1 of which is good, go on...

"I've been playing with this deck off pure earth that really reminds me of some old school Void control style builds, it's pretty freaking nasty. Whats everyone elses thoughs on the symbol? Is it the next one to make the big splash onto the competitive scene."

STOP

Earth is NOT old school Void, and shouldn't remind you of it. I know, I know, Earth has redux, control, and discard, just like Void, but Void generally ran Power Up, Shadow Banishment, and Seichu Nidan. "But Earth has DBK and Criminal Uppercut, virtually the same thing!"

No.

Earth doesn't have Dhalsim, and it doesn't have Ukyo, two of Void's immensely defining factors. Oh, that and the fact that Void had AMAZING, borderline broken control (Void trinity, un-errata'd Red Gi), and Earth has balanced, somewhat slow-paced/tame control.

I've already spoken on how bad Earth is right now, and believe me, it's in my top 4 of favorite symbols! However, it suffers from bad character symbol, and while symbols may be good, it needs a pilot (hence why Void :::Akuma::: isn't such a bad candidate).

I applaud you for raising awareness of a lower-tier symbol, but really, try raising awareness of Life or Void. Those two have amazing qualities, yet are basically regarded as the two worst symbols (though I personally think Life is better than Fire). Earth is in the low/bottom tier category (as of right now) for a reason.

i haven't tried straight b3 Earth yet, but i have been toying around with an Earth Yi Shan deck that's done pretty well in local tournaments... its nowhere near tournament level but still... Scourge of Zeus in combo with his E, leading into more Scourges, Swallow Slams or Clones with a hint of random damage pumps in there somewhere is kinda fun... and with Star of the Ring (action side) lets me recur Scourges and Swallow Slams pretty easily... plus he has Good so KoF2006 + Mysterious Stance's R is always fun...

in regards to block 3 i'm actually looking forward to experimenting with a b3 Jivatma off of Earth... with all of Earth's damage redux and his 30 vitality he can last long enough to accumulate a couple Stars Allign and use them effectively... with Zasalamel's support he can protect his Enhances... Earth does lack serious draw power right now but Dancing Battle Kabuki can give you an artifical +1hs if you can hit 5s...

with Gaira and R.Mika coming out soon Earth should be getting a few new fun toys... and judging from American Made, Terry's support probably has Earth too... Hugo's stuff probably has it too...

MarcoPulleaux said:

Nothing will be like void was back before set 6 void controled everything you did keep you to a 3 handsize and only being able to play 1 attack a turn then block for half backflip . But it shares some similarities and I dont think its low tier it has so much diversity . But the fact that it can on some level answer almost every card right now in some way makes it viable in my opinon

Scubadude said:

Oh, it has quite a bit of diversity. It's too bad that diversity looks amazing on paper and not in practice =/

Like I said, its major problem is lack of a truly good character. Please, lol, don't make a list of good Earth characters; my unpublished Earth article features the ENTIRE list of EVERY Earth character legal as of right now, so, heh, I'm aware of which ones are any good.

Another problem is its abundance of 3 difficulty and 4 check cards, as well as its lack of consistant momentum generation and draw. If Earth had the momentum capabilities of White Magic and the draw capabilities of Silent Step, well then fine, but relying solely on DBK/KOF2006 and Mortal Strike/Tag Along isn't exactly reliable.

Here's what would make Earth viable right now:

Something like Unknown Force
Something like Ring Veteran
More 3 check attacks, be it 4 difficulty or lower, or with the Throw keyword

Almost every Earth attack has 5 difficulty or higher. Simply put, Earth moves as slowly as the mountain it's modeled after. Until it gains some speed, it does nothing more than gain life and reduce damage, hence why my all-Earth :.:Zangief:.: has never lost a single match (and it's been pitted against the top tier, non-Earth characters ever since the patch event), but has also never won any =/ (well, excluding forfeits lol)

MarcoPulleaux said:

I think your wrong here. First and foremost i have been playing earth and I can absolutley attest that it wins and wins hard. Ill address the point you have made here:

6 check foundations:
- End it all is a fantastic anti Hax card, something that gets a lot of play
- Blinding Rage is a fantastic Anti ocladans card, something that gets a lot of play
- Speak the Truth has a good high block for anti spike and decent life gain. Nothing great but for a 6 check its solid
- Glare from the abyss is 1 of 2 hand strippers that works with Ways of Punishment on the symbol with a block and a 6 check
- Will of Iron protects your momentum and is a static with a blick

Most of these have applications outside of there amazing checks and difficulties. None are bad, and I would qualify more than one of them as good.

0 Drop foundations:
- DBK - Enough said.
- Zephyr - It's a card that stops Rejection. How is that not amazing
- Human weapon - I'll grant you its less than fantastic, however having the ability to drop in even more 0 diff foundations gives you a lot of versaility that other symbols lack.

Once again, none of these are bad by any extent. Some will see play just for thier numbers, but at least you have that luxury.

The reason I say earth plays like old school void is that Old schooll void used to win by stripping hands, locking down foudnations, canceling or preventing effects and usually killing with a few if not one or 2 big attacks. How is earth currently winning? Stripping hands (Glare, KOF2006, Ways), Locking down foundations (Program Malfunction is possibly better than ring vet in a lot of cases), Preventing effects (Zasalamels foundations), and killing with a few big attacks (listed in above threads). Granted the tools are different but in the end the mind set of the symbol is the same.

As for earth not having quality characters, i call bullcrap on that. Earth dosent have ukyo, it does have Kyoshiro which is a close replacement for a block 3 enviroment. Earth loses Adon and Mina but gets 8 hand size Leona who has the potential to be just UTTERLY DEVISTATING when played right. Hanzo can be redicilous on any symbol, and earth is no exception. Gen currently has the best numbers in all of block 3 and 2 decent abilities to boot. In addition to all that i would argue that earth may very well have the best 6 hand size characters in the game when block 3 rolls around. Zangief is a monster to try and kill, Sagat can gain redicious board control, Jivatma has great numbers, a super powerful ability, and support card for himself.

I would contend with you that earth on a competitive level is not even remotley low tier at this point, just often overlooked. While it may not have as many amazing cards as some symbols, the cards it does have that are amazing do what they need to do and work very well with one another.

I'd first like to say that I chuckled when I read the first few posts: I said some while ago that I thought Earth was going to be very, very good come rotation. I still stand by that remark.

All it really needs to be actually "top/high-mid" tier is slightly more solid momentum generation and a little stronger card draw. Beyond that, it's got no problems at all.

People seem to forget how stupidly good **Huitzil** is (and, of course, how good *Huitzil* has always been) ...

okay so fred lists 3 0 dif foundations 2 being dbk and one taekwhon-do-zephyr and only one's good marcoP?

ARE YOU F'NG KIDDING ME??? i dont' mean to flame you but i am. you have no idea about top tier ufs if this is your belief. dbk has two awesome sides and tae kwon do craps all over rejection, rolls a 5 and has a good block. YOU FAIL.

meh to double grounder guys?? WHAT!!! blasphemy. that card is nuts good.

Scott Gaines said:

Read his sig - it's Shinji/Mr.G&W. You know VERY well he never had any idea about top-tier UFS. Grats, YHBT.

Hello, one thing that everyone is forgetting is one thing about earth.

IT SUCKS

Here is a list of things that earth is missing.

Consistant card drawing
Foundation Negation (like chesters)
Protection from other foundations
CC Hack, so you can't really stop what ever your opponent is doing to you
Action negation

Earth loses hardcore to evil,all, order, and what does it do vs water loops,
I've seen earth decks, and I wasn't impressed by what i've seen.
I'd rather play fire all the tiem over earth.

Against water loops it will redcuce it to zero with amys or commit the loop card with revenants. As for the control match order is the hardest to deal with then any symbol in UFS history in my opinion no matter what you play. But Earth still does have some Response negation so hopefully that will be enough to put it in the right direction .