i do really think that the reason defender gets so much heat from the UFS community is because of the fact that it can loop rejection. Rejection is a real problem card and has been for a while. If anything should be banned its Rejection

Ignore this... I fail at reading.

Learn something new everyday:)

Antigoth said:

unfortunatley trapped in a nightmare says commit one of your opponent's foundations , if it did commit assetstrapped in a nightmare would be amazing not that it isn't already.

I say we eratta defender to be a foundation, problem solved

Eh... I fail at reading. Nevermind

So trapped in a Nightmare needs a reprint or an errata instead?

Morning Demon said:

If it said card then people would talk about it more but honestly I would like to see something on the similar lines so we get a universal commit effect like we had with TYPFG.

Scubadude said:

So long it can't target characters I'm good.

GeneralReaction89 said:

Rejection isn't a real problem card. It's great, yes. Strong, yes. A problem, not really. I call it annoying, but it doesn't need a ban.

If the thread-starter is still reading this, then let me just say, you cannot use either "ban" or "errata" here without the hounds chewing your face off. The forums have done a very good job at limiting free speech, and the two words have become almost taboo.

But, being who I've always been, I refuse to let a bunch of zealots slow down good, productive conversation.

In this particular case, I'm just going to speak my piece. Defender is a crutch, and is one of the many cards right now that are ruining the game. Mind you, that isn't saying the game is BAD, rather, it's saying that it has problematic cards that take away from intended gameplay.

Defender is one such card. I honestly think they should never produce any card with the name "Defend" in it ever again, because it appears to me that everytime they make a card called Defender, it ends up being the OFFENDER more than it does any defending.

After having playtested with 1-3 copies in a deck (because I'm sure 4 would end up being overkill), it's official that this card is a win crutch. Much like how many decks just ran Felines, TWOP + Attack, Soul Power + Moonbeam, Shadow Banishment + Ryu's Donkey Punch, this card promotes using as few attacks as possible, most notably, Mega Spike. This game should be a flurry of attacks, somewhat akin to the good ol' Fire ***Adon*** who ran 16-20 attacks as well as Challenge the Master to truly represent what this game ought to be more like: attacking.

Defender goes against the intended gameplay. Furthermore, its uses of "defending" are skewed no thanks to Lord of the Makai, and in ways, Rejection (which disuades blocking, btw). There are plenty ways of errata'ing it, but honestly, it's much easier to ban something than it is to errata it, especially since the necessary errata would be to get rid of its looping qualities, and that would require a lot.

I've always said this and always will, but for those mention "counters" and "there are plenty of ways to stop it", you're all retards. Listing counters is based on the theory that you'll get them out, and everything will go just peachy over 75% of the time (because you're going to need a percentage like that to have any credence). The reality, unfortunately, is that, over 75% of the time, counters ain't s---, and that if "there are counters" meant as much as you people want it to, then nothing would be banned, because there are counters.

The reason why *Yun-Seong* went from "OMJ HE'S OVERPOPULATING WORLDS" top tierdom to "holy crap Yun Seong sucks" tier is because of a few reasons. The most obvious is that a SLEW of cards came out that were purposefully made to disuade using him. Mortal Strike, Absurd, Seal of Cess, Addes, and Tag Along to name a few. Notice how I didn't mention any characters? I mentioned cards that could be ran in multiples, and ALL saw a ton of play, meaning Yun Seong had no space to breathe, and died out.

Defender isn't a character, and it's very symbol support and realistic speed state that Defender is quicker than any of its counters the majority of the time. As much as I hate kissing ass, MegaGeese pretty much showed us just how good the card is, as really, Kyoshiro has no ability but to become a 13 hand-sizer once per game, and it netted him...3rd?

Ban this card. Get rid of it, along with all the other cards that make winning easier than it should be. Winning shouldn't just be, "I play 1 card, and it's backed-up by so much support you can't do squat." Every single game should be won by using multiple attacks, except of course Mill, but honestly, I think Mill in UFS is BS since it's a fighting-based game, and I can't think of a single character in fighting game history that ever won by not attacking (excluding time limit turtlers duh).

MarcoPulleaux said:

'cause generally, good productive conversation stops when you come into topics. At least I don't delude myself on the actual points I bring into topics.

MarcoPulleaux said:

For every reason you just listed that hurt YS i can name 2 VIABLE tourney caliber cards that answer defender. I cant name as many for rejection though I dont think that rejection is a problem still. LOTM is the problem and it always will be. The card is entirley above all other momentum gen by light years and the primary source of the infinite in this infinite loop.

Most people mention counters as just one of many reasons that a card should/shouldnt be banned, its never the only part of the argument. I dont think defender should be banned, On its own its a costly ability on an otherwise useless asset with bad stats. Its ONLY when you add in Makai that it becomes problematic. Every other Momentum loop will cost you your hand, or your staging area, or will just end after a short time, typically not being substantial enough to kill someone. Right now if your paying one momentum per use of a cycling megaspike, your getting the same effecency as a powerful 3 attack. I can think of a few situations where a powerful 3 would be better (no minimum redux for instance.) Its not a 1-1 comparison but it is what it is.

Also please refrain from calling people retards. As soon as I read you say "your all retards" this post went from a passionate post about the state of the game to bitter scrawlings of a nobody.

I dont think that banning LotM is going to solve the problem that is caused by looping anything you can still use natural leader + shooting cap or professional soldier and have enough staging area to keep it going until someone dies....

It might make it faster and easier but if you ban all the power cards more power cards are going to arise and then peopel will just complain about those too....

I dont think that banning defender would do any good either because there are still other loops that you can do like hanzo loop..is it broken because its easy to do? No because it can be stopped so why is defender so broken when it can be stopped as well

This truly isnt getting anybody anywhere ive never lost to defender loop because i plan for it yeah it makes you build your deck differently but i like card games where i have to think....you might as well play a computer with no AI intellegence if you dont want to play against an actual deck and have to play around what your opponent does

Protoaddict said:

Actually proto, and this is the problem, most people ONLY list counters, basically saying, "because there are counters, X-card is no longer a problem." It is as black and white as it could get. Now, while counters are some what...I guess evidence to back up a claim, it's SHODDY evidence. Like I said in another post, Jonathan Ledezma said Higher Calibur WASN'T a broken card, despite the outcrys of...well, everyone, and his excuse was "counters" (most notably, US Air Base, which pretty much never saw play).

As I already mentioned, the counter advocates don't even know how to properly push their point. When you mention counters, you have to encorporate what's the likelihood it'll hit the playing field, and what's its ACTUAL effect as opposed to its hypothetical effect. For example, one could say Akuma is less of a threat due to Destiny. Now, honestly, I haven't seen Destiny see play, but then again, I haven't even played in over a month, so I don't know. But, I'm sure most people here can assure me that, yes, Destiny's very existence means hax characters, most notably Akuma, are weakened. Destiny is a 2/5, a foundation, and most Akuma decks don't exactly pack cards that can deal with it not named Olcadan's Mentoring.

All these people who write these birthday lists of counters don't even look at it to go, "jeez, only a few of these are even viable." I've stated over and over again that Undercover Agent is one of the best cards ever made, and I have yet to meet anybody who either agrees with me, or even knows what the card does.

Lord of the Makai is busted, and I agree with that. Although you're right in that Defender is...pretty much only great because of Lord of the Makai, its symbols have more than enough momentum generation in various forms that I still can't agree that if Lord of the Makai goes, Defender goes. It gets immensely slowed down, but heck, all Kyoshiro needs to do is pack his deck with Buddhist Devotions and Natural Leaders. He can even use Clean Rematch if he so wanted, and all of a sudden, you STILL have more than enough momentum to fuel the **** thing.

As for the retards comment, I did consider not posting it, but then I realized, no, using that term expresses exactly what I think. Ever since this very cycle, I've had to hear over and over again, "this card isn't so bad; it has counters", and every single time I said, "no, you're wrong, it'll get banned", and every single F'ing time I said that, I was always right. From Calibur to Addes to Revitalize, I Stephen Colbert'd it.

I don't put up with BS for a moment, and I'm honestly stunned that there are still people in this very thread saying that cards that are problematic aren't JUST because counters exist.

I've been wanting to build an Order deck for a long time now, but I can't, because I know that no matter what deck I come up with, Defender Loop works much more quickly and efficiently. That's why it needs to go.

All I'm seeing now is "wah I lose to good players".

tbh i havent read though all this thread but defender is strong yes but i think that instead of banning a card or messing around with it how about sorting out another card that causes so many more problems and is technically given out free

Lord of the Makai

You get the card "free" with a box so you havent lost anything cos most people get a box at discount. It is was too strong statted 2diff 6 cc 4 symbols and a block and no commit to generate moment for free. I have less issuses with BRT than LOM. If this card commited to generate moemtn then it would be better or take it out the pool and solve a lot more problems and more that may or may not come aobut in the next few sets.

how about we dont ban or errata anything yet as we have a new set coming soon and one thing i have notticed about this game is that if there is a problam then they try and make stuff to make it more balanced. I am not saying to not ban it but wait until the next set is raliesed and then make jugment.

Homme Chapeau said:

fixed to bring on good memories

c pyrotecnic a said:

its been a meme for over than 1 year

How bout the people who suck just stop posting, seriously there are tons of answers to the problems you posted. Blah Blah Blah, ban this ban that, on saint pattie's day Loki 5k, Morning Demon and I were talking about how everyone's a whiny ***** on the furoms. And honestly by the way things, are looking, people just won't shut up. Honestly, play the meta, don't complain that your fire deck has a hard time beating an order control deck, the cards and power don't match up. You have a problem with order control, play chaos or evil and you'll see it's not that bad. You have a problem with defender, then run cards to commit it, or destroy assets, it's really not that hard to deal with the card.

How about a new memo:

Stop sucking and complaining, play the meta, and look for answers that are currently printed. There are 100 ways to stop defender cold in the it's tracks, maybe some of you should attempt figure what they are. Honestly in my meta, we should shrug if you play defender and proceeded to get around it and beat you.

sir_shajir said:

And you know my answer to this : Post 'em or GTFO.

Saying : "There's a 100 answers." and posting : "There's a 100 answers. Here they are in concise order. NOW GO OUT AND PLAY WITH THOSE AND THEN COME BACK WITH THE DATA!" is different. One doesn't contribute to the general health of the meta. The other does.

Oh, and Fire, not having any defense against Defender? Surely you jest. I'm serious, too. Gaishiki, which you can reverse into with the plethora of Earth/Evil/Fire spread characters all thanks to Drifter (which has Fire anyway) which makes it so that it doesn't limit you to just playing it on your turn and hope? And that's just blowing it up! We haven't even touched the rest of the cards which makes Defender say "GG but you're never coming back son."

Give me a symbol, and i'll tell you how to stop it?

All has tough outer shell,
How many symbols have rev's calling, tira's contract, no memories, amy's assistance, order has experienced combatant, what about destroying it with LGR? what about destroying it with natur's force, family heirloom, or using the new bison tech that was just printed? using seal of cessation? or just getting rid of the momentum so that they aren't able to activate the defender?

How's that for some answers?

sir_shajir said:

Speaking of Tough Outer Shell, I will be likely running that at your regionals provided my deck idea actually works. If it does not, well, I'm kinda boned 'cause there's nothing I can think of that will adequatly combat the meta and win at the same time.

I am mildly amused because my fire decks have no trouble beating top of the line order decks.

It's very simple really: Get hand, play cards, smash face. Order is still 1 or 2 turns slower than a properly built Fire deck list, and that is honestly all the time in the world to disrupt them with Manifest and Ira Spinta.

As to Defender:

Defender is not the issue here, Lord of the Makai is. Take out Lord of the Makai and you've slowed DLoop.dec down to where they're scrambling for momentum elsewhere or actually attacking their opponent for momentum which means less slots to forcing the DLoop.

Also, there are counters to Defender OMG.

There are also ways to bring Lord of the Makai under constraint as well, same for the MegaSpikes/negative strains.

Let's do the math here shall we?

Defender/=win

Defender+Lord of the Makai/=win

Defender+Lord of the Makai+Mega Spike=/win

Defender+Lord of the Makai+Mega Spike+Mega Spike=win

Four separate parts that must be protected means 4 different ways to take it apart.

LIST OF ALL COUNTERS HERE BITE ME HATMAN.

But you must realize that it all comes down to having that consistent (IE "infinite") source of momentum, which is Lord of the Makai. Control their momentum people. Sideboard Blood Stained Fate or Ikari Warrior. While they devote resources to protecting that part of the loop, go after Defender.