I was just curious what others thought of the Decline of the Eldar. I have been reading up on the Eldar, in the hopes that Rogue Trader will cover them in greater depth.

As far as I can figure, the Eldar started to use Spirit Stones to protect their souls from Slaeneesh. When an Eldar dies, and its Spirit is added to the Craftworld, does that stone then become available for an unborn Eldar? Do the Eldar have a limited number of newborns based on the limited number of Spirit Stones? Does the mother wear the childs stone during its gestation, or is the child protected by the Spirit Stone of the parents?

I was curious about this because of a posting I read somewhere, and how none of those posting could agree on why the Eldar were a dying race. If every Eldar, except Harlequins, has a Spirit Stone, it must have that stone from birth or earlier. If there is a limited number of the stones, or if the stones are difficult-- even by Eldar tech-- to create, perhaps this is the reason they are a dying race. If you have to wait for a stone, and it requires an Eldar to die or a long creation cycle, this would be the most logical way to explain that decline. I mean, the Eldar are clearly not stupid, and they understand the fact that their numbers are in decline. It would be simple to just crank out more Eldar babies if the stones were unlimited in supply. Hence, the stones must be ultra-rare, and this is the limiting factor.

I guess I am going to have to find some Eldar and hope for an answere not shrouded in mysterious Xeno-memes.

I'm no Eldar expert, but from what I understand this is why the Eldar are a dying race:

It doesn't have to do with the production/availability of soul stones, at least not primarily. The problem is that when they die, lest a soul stone be present their soul will be consumed by Slaanesh. So Soul Stones are a means of preserving their souls from the ravages of the warp. That's their doom: it's like being senteced to go to hell regardless of what you do in life. So they've just managed to create ways to be immortal (through the soul stones).

What I believe is the main cause for their decline is that they are effectively doomed. Why bring in a child to a doomed existence? It's like raising a family in a war torn area, only you know for a fact that your child will not be spared the ravages of war, that they will end up feeding Slaanesh. So in the end, it only makes sense that they are in decline, because to breed and grow is to eventually tempt fate yet again, and power that which they seek to destroy.

I might be completely mistaken, but at least that's how I've understood it so far.

Lexicanum said:

Not only that, but could you imagine what that sort of situation would do to your society? knowing that your people gave birth to a chaos god and that said being was looking to corrupt and destroy you. It doesn't matter if you are good or evil, in the end you die and if not protected your soul experiences something beyond what humans would call 'hell'. Something far, far worse. Even going insane wouldn't be a release. your only choices are to find a way to live forever (and thus avoid your fate) or completely obliterate your soul.

As others have mentioned, a lot of Eldar have just given up. They see themselves as a doomed race and so play out the role, the've lost there worlds, there culture, a lot of there technology and worst of all there souls and the future of there race. I mean if you knew that your Childrens souls were automatically forfet to a deamon, would you have them?

Those Eldar that didn't just commit suicide after the fall though are tough hombre's, these are the ones who decided that while they might not be able to win a war against Chaos, they wern't just going to go quietly into the night either. There decided to fight tooth and nail for as long as possible to hold off the inevitable.

As for Soul Stones, Soul stones hold not only the soul, but the conciousness of the Eldar who wore them. Taken from dead eldar they are crafted into the wraith bone walls of the craft world, allowing there conciousness to join those of others. Eldar Exarchs too consumed by the path of the Warrior often find new life when there soul stones are crafted into the wraith bone shells of dreadnaughts or titans. The Eldar don't need clumsy AI units or cogitators, there literally guided by there ancestors.

Lexicanum said:

Sorry to interrupt, but thats not entirely correct. The craftworld eldar (and the exodites in extension) are not able to "grow" spirit-/waystones. They need to be harvested on the crone worlds (named after their goddess moraig-heg, the old crone), the original eldar homeworlds. These are all deep inside the eye of terror (albeit reachable by the webway i suppose) which means that they are probably the most dangerous place in the galaxy. Eldar collector teams travel there to harvest the crystals that form there, believing that the stones were left for them by vaul, the smith who formed them of the tears of isha. Which probably just means "The psychic energy crystallizes magically on the crone worlds at certain places".

It goes without saying that traveling there has a good chance of dying and an even better chance of becoming a chaos eldar plaything. Many who travel there never come back.

That severely limits the offspring you could have. To use the analogon of the war zone: You foster a child and you have no bulletproof vest for it.

EDIT:

As in "Who conceived the idea that the next thing squirting out of a cow is drinkable?" or "I´ll eat this mushroom and if i don´t die its okay." the eldar waystone thing is like "I will collect these highly warp-radiated crystals on a planet that is completely under chaos control and full of mutated and insane beings and carry it around my neck in hopes that my spirit will be rescued by it."

Ironically it actually works for the eldar.

Some other fluff bits: They are spirit stones as long as they are worn. When an eldar dies it becomes a waystone (soulstone was just used in one novel, canß´t remember which one - its not very canon). Waystones are implanted into a craftworlds wraithbone arrays or exodite stone circles, menhirs or other nature-worshipping sites. They stay there, but the spirit is bound to the waystone. Because of this the waystone can be taken from the resting place and used to control phantom constructs. The spirit never actually leaves the waystone and is susceptible to damage to the waystone.

ya know i seem to remember reading somewhere (and i dont remember where) that the spirit stones are also part of the reason why craftworld eldar arnt effected by the thirst like the dark eldar are,

that it shields their soul while they are still alive too

Also, unlike humans, Eldar probably dont have any "accidental" children. Because of Slannesh they most likely avoid any form of intimate contact unless they are trying to have children.

Varius said:

Slaanesh does not equal sex!

This is possibly the single biggest misconception in 40k, and one that does not deserve the air with which it is voiced.

Fundamentally, anything and everything the Eldar do is of note to Slaanesh (at least as much as any mortal activity can be of note to an amorphous semisapient manifestation of emotional concept)... because they're Eldar. Psychologically, they're Slaanesh's favourite people... because Slaanesh is born from them.

And, crazy as it may seem, it wasn't the Eldar humping like bunnies that created Slaanesh. It was the rampant and pointless murder, the casual torture, incidental ****, idle delving into Things Best Left Unknown, and general indulgence in anything and everything they could possibly conceive of doing, just for the sake of doing it and because they were bored at the time - a society with no laws, no ethics, no morals and no limits. No activity was taboo, everything was a matter of whim and circumstance and mood. Imagine a time and place where a man could torture, **** and/or murder a random passer-by for nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the murder being so casual and unremarkable that nobody pays any attention to it, and the act is forgotten within moments as some other mildly intriguing notion enters the mind of the murderer and witnesses alike. Flower arranging one day, flaying people the next... just because you can...

Essentially, then, Slaanesh exists because of, and represents, the potential to seek pleasure of any kind, to the detriment and exclusion of all else.

Ikkaan said:

Thanks for the correction, as I said, I'm no expert on Eldar matters. Still, it seems to me the waystone limit is complementary to the bigger backdrop of being doomed to consumption in "warp-hell" by Slaanesh. After all, there would be no need for waystones if this was not the case. Though, I can clearly see how it would impede and limit any effort by any radical Eldar faction bent on fighting back, regardless of the cost.

Is this why there's a story of one Inquisitor collecting 100 way stones as payment for information he wanted from the Eldar? I originally thought he was merely saving the souls of Eldar trapped in those waystones. I hadn't thought about the implication that he was allowing for the birth of 100 new Eldar. Are there samples of unused waystones if you will? Or if one were to find one, it would contain the spirit of an Eldar?

I think this pretty much covers it.

1d4chan.org/wiki/Dark_Eldar

+++WARNING+++

Clicking on the above link will take you into 'adult content', with bad words, etc.

Seriously, if you're a minor, don't go there...it pretty much has a 'do not expose to face' warning on it...

+++/WARNING+++

Luddite said:

As representive of the God Emperor and his most Holy Inquisition I declare that website HERETICUS IN EXTREMIS and declare them HERETICUS DIABOLIS! Purge it by fire in the name of the God Emperor!

Now that someone has found the information about the origins of the Waystones, my initial theory about the rarity of them is a fact.

Here is my take on the Eldar world view=

Yes, they believe that they are in decline. They die, and if unprotected, their soul goes to feed the vile evil their ancestors created.

They have a method of protecting themselves from this end. Brave Eldar have quested to harvest the stones, most dying in the process, in order for a new Eldar to be born.

Now if the Eldar were all so depressed and have given up hope, why bother risking death to produce more doomed Eldar? Why not just stop now, and let the final battle come sooner?

Here is what I think about this=

We humans know that our world is doomed. The signs are all there= global warming, overpopulation, general evil. Knowing that the problems we face are herculean, do we stop living? Do you want to stop living because your ancestors polluted the world before you were born?

No. And the Eldar loved life more than any human ever could. How do you go from loving life, to disdaining it? Why would an Eldar care if humans colonized a Seedworld unless they were saving it for the future? Why would any Eldar continue to focus on being the best at something if it was only to be the best when it didnt matter anymore? So the theory that they have all given up, or that even more than a tiny percentage of them has given up, is hog-wash and propaganda; it does not match the facts in any way.

The fact that the Eldar survivors live on Craftworlds where they sustain populations 10 or even 100 times more than they were designed for, and are in fact 100 times bigger now than thousands of year ago, shows that the race not only survives, it thrives.

If the theory that every new Eldar born is a product of deliberation is true, than why reproduce if you are doomed? How would they logically increase their numbers to 100 times more now than at the time right after the fall when they were starting to live on the Craftwolds? "Hey, we are doomed to be eaten by chaos when we die, so lets make sure we create a constant food supply!"

If you are doomed, why reproduce, why build up the craftworlds, why protect the seedworlds, why strive to be the best, why do anything other than lie down and pass away?

Luddite said:

Congrats on posting the most useless information possible about WH40K. That may pass as acceptable when you lurk on 4chan, but wow, thats bad. Pure waste of time, not to mention a little bit disrespectful to the hobby as a whole.

Luddite said:

I think I need a good mindcleansing after seeing that link.

You need to lighten up. Its just a joke site made by bored nerds so that they could poke fun at their own hobbies.

Lets not let this discussion devolve now. I looked at the link and thought it was useless too.

Amusingly I got about the same amount of information from that link as I did from the latest GW codex...

Kage

NsaneDragn said:

A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men . - Gene Wilder (Willy Wonka).

'Disrespectful of the hobby'?

Odd.

Not sure how to respond to such an ill-informed accusation, other than to note that I came into 'the hobby' back with Chainmail , and i'm still going strong... ...is that 'disrespectful'?

Indeed i'm not sure this hobby i love in all its glorious facets is actually worthy of 'respect'. Playing 'lets pretend', or 'toy soldiers' is wonderfully silly don't you think?

I've always felt i was 'nurturing my inner child', not 'being respectable'...maybe thats just me though...

Anyway, back on topic eh?

The decline of the Eldar...keep it respectable chaps...

For the first time ever Im interested in learning more about Eldar/Dark Eldar/Clown Make Up Eldar. For the longest time I just considered them Space Elves, but the few tid bits given away on this thread is getting me interested in them a bit more.

Think I will have to read up on these fellas.

Odd, considering I have a Dark Eldar Army, course it isnt assembled or painted and is still sitting in its boxes.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I have an Eldar army for 40k, and the latest rulebook is excellent. There is alot of background material, and one could easily adapt the rules for Dark Heresy.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Couldn't agree more peacekeeper .

Since 1e D&D i've pretty much hated elves and therefore Eldar, for the Mary Sues they are.

True GW Eldar models have always been pretty excellent, but i've never really been that interested in them as an army or as a faction.

That said, one thing that is interesting about them is their 'Fall'?

How it actually heppened is an interesting debate of course, but my interest comes in its wider effects, especially on the Imperium.

It seems for example, that Humanity were on a steady psychic advancement until the Eldar Fall really messed up the Warp. I think i'd trace much of the trouble with the Imperium to that point...dangerous Warp journeys, unpredictable psykers (interrupting the Emperor's eugenics plans to advance Humanity towards its psychic evolution), etc.

Personally i find the idea that the Eldar simply had an endless orgy and Slaneesh popped out the end daft. But then i also find their wider Libertine hedonism resulting in the birth of the great breasted one, implausible too.

For me,the Eldar had to have been doing something related to the Warp...perhaps attempting i to enhance their psychic power somehow...what though, i'm not sure...

weaver95 said:

Quite.

Which explains the Eldar emo-ness quite admirably. XD

I recall reading somewhere that it was the birth of Slaanesh that lessened the warp storms around Terra, allowing the Emperor to begin his crusade to reunite humanity? So really humanity should thank the Eldar for their hedonistic debauchery leading to the Fall.

The Eldar have essentially accpeted that they as a species are going to die. So in the mean time the yare going to do everything they can to survive and stop the predations of Chaos and the Necrons. Also According to Eldar mythology at the End of Days the souls that are captured in the spirit stones will all coalesce and form into the Eldar god of the dead who will fight and defeat Slaanesh allowing the Eldar souls to slip into eternal rest without being eaten. So yay vengeance or something like that...

I like the Eldar. They have always been my favorite 40K race. Not because they are elves in space, but because they dont lack beauty. The Imperium is just ugly to me, very dystopic (obviously). The Eldar have their dark bits, but you can imagine having a clean, decent life amongst them, where life in the Imperium is just "nasty, brutish, and short."

I eagerly await Rogue Trader, as I am sure most do. I want to let my players be Eldar if they wish, or interact with them without being burned at the stake. I cant stand the smell of burning flesh. I would rather be an Eldar.

The origins of Slaaneesh interest me too. My take on it is that the debauchery all those Eldar were engaging in was more in line with the HELLRAISER debaucheries: People consumed with obsessions bring about the arrival of evil entities. And I agree that the debauchery was most likely entirely psi based. All those Eldars peering into the Void, like a billion sons flashing across the warp, and BOOM! Slaaneesh is born. Was he always in the warp, just waiting for all the power he needed to coalesce? I think that is likely the case. I think he came to the Eldar in dreams, promising them untold knowledge, power, pleasure, riches if they did things, things which corrupted them and brought him forth. Was it an orgy? I doubt it. It likely had to do with consuming each others souls, or the souls of victims, to such a degree that it was pleasurable and psychically deadly.

from france

explain mary sues? i don't no this expression

back to the subject you are wrong if you believe that slaneesh is simply a god of pleasure it 's also a god of perfection. want to be the ultimate duelist (and not the ultimate butcher) worship him. after it 's the disere of the emperor children to be the ultimate warior philosopher tha doomed them not the debauchery. the orgy scene describ in fulgrim is very clear the human felt to debauchery notthe space marine and least it wasn't in a sexual way. so for the eldar they still fall in slaneesh way when you look at their obscession with being the perfect something be it duellist or poet.

for the dark eldar it s unclear for me i have the codex army and they doesn't seem to worhsip him instead the worhsip kaine in his more sinisters aspect.s and they don't seem to need the spirtstones nor they seem to finish in his helle. maybe another one but not his. the way i understand it they protect themselves differently they need to inflict suffering to other in order spare themselves. and don't forget that outside comoraugh they don't have other worlds. the questions is where this world is and why they are spare?

all the eldar don't bother with scraftwolrd. takes the pirates not the dark eldar they travel between star whithout the need of a vault for spirit stone. you also have the exodites no i don't talk about the scout of craftworld but of entire civilisation of eldar who live on a world. nowere it is written that they need spirit stone.

to be precise it seems that only people aboard a craft world close to the eye need those spirit stones. i may be wrong but i plys 40k since 15 years and i have collected a lot of books.

by the way spirit sone are made of wraithbone also use to creat a lot of thing from the pillar found in cadia to the spacecraft so i don't think they are in short supply.

good by