Need ruling on Fili & Kili played from hand

By rmunn, in Rules questions & answers

There have been several threads (one on these forums, and two on Board Game Geek) regarding Fili and Kili, and opinions are divided. We need an official ruling.

The question: Let's say I have just one copy of both Fili and Kili in my whole deck, and they both end up in my starting hand. If I play Fili from my hand, can Kili accompany him? The text says "search your deck for Kili and put him into play under your control." The connecting word is "and", not "then", so FAQ seciton 1.15 does not apply (if it did, then searching your deck would have to find Kili before I could play him). FAQ section 1.16 is very specific that "put into play" is not the same as "play" so it does not trigger any responses to the card being "played", but it doesn't help in this case, because the question is "put into play from where?" Since "put into play" has fewer restrictions than "play" (you don't need to pay the cost, for example), does that mean the card could come from anywhere that it would be legal to play the card? In other words, could "put him into play", which does not specify from where, bring the card out of my hand?

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=284&efcid=4&efidt=766347 has a single answer of "No", but it's from another player, not an official ruling from an FFG game designer.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/952824/kili-and-fili has mixed opinions, some saying this is legal and some saying it is not.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/958258/playing-fili-kili-if-both-are-in-your-hand also has mixed opinions, some saying "Yes" and some saying "No".

Players are not able to reach a consensus on this one, and an official game designer ruling is needed. Thanks!

In my opinion the text on both cards is very clear.

"Response: After you play Kili from your hand during the planning phase, search your deck for Fili and put him into play under your control. Then, shuffle your deck."

To be able to put the brother in play, you need to find him on your deck.

Thus, if the only copy of the brother is in your hand, sorry but you will not be able to get the benefict from the card response.

Another situation, that isn't rightly approached in the first of the BBG links is the shuffling of your deck after searching for the brother.

The FAQ says

(1.15) The word “then”
If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding
effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent
dependent effect to resolve.
So if you search the deck and don't find the brother, you cannot shuffle your deck because the preceding effect does not resolved successfully…

Interesting. If you play Fili and Kili is not in your deck, you should be able to search it and leave it unshuffled. Funny. Probably not intended.

In my own games, if you play one brother and the other is in hand (and no additional copies are in the deck), we don't allow the response to be triggered. I do not think the card's intent is transparent, though. It may very well be intended that you can play him from your hand even without the deck search. I don't think the current wording supports that very well, but stranger rulings have come down! Why not submit for some official perspective?

CJMatos said:

The FAQ says

(1.15) The word “then”
If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding
effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent
dependent effect to resolve.
So if you search the deck and don't find the brother, you cannot shuffle your deck because the preceding effect does not resolved successfully…

However, in the same FAQ,

(1.21) Search Effects
Whenever a player searches through a deck, that player
shuffles the deck after searching it unless a card effect
says otherwise. Players do not shuffle or change the
order of a discard pile after searching it.

So, you still have to shuffle your deck after searching, no matter you find the target or not.

Angus Lee said:

CJMatos said:

The FAQ says

(1.15) The word “then”
If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding
effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent
dependent effect to resolve.
So if you search the deck and don't find the brother, you cannot shuffle your deck because the preceding effect does not resolved successfully…

However, in the same FAQ,

(1.21) Search Effects
Whenever a player searches through a deck, that player
shuffles the deck after searching it unless a card effect
says otherwise. Players do not shuffle or change the
order of a discard pile after searching it.

So, you still have to shuffle your deck after searching, no matter you find the target or not.

"unless a card effect says otherwise". my understanding is thar the rule they created with the word "then" is saying otherwise…