this is rhaegar http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1281901798/med_gallery_17_180528.jpg

this is mereneese brothel http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1281658268/med_gallery_9_213060.jpg

this is the long winter http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1281901920/med_gallery_22_208874.jpg

this is guardian wolfie http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/got/med_guardian-wolf-tior.jpg

two questions from two different scenarios.

1) I had the long winter attached to his house card, and he had the brothel in play. when he played rhaegar from his hand, he wanted to discard the long winter. his reasoning was rhaegar have printed str 5, and when he comes into play the long winter reduces it by 1 so he gets to trigger the brothel.

2) I declare a mil challenge with my main man robby stark. he defends with rhaegar and another guy. guardian dog comes out of shadows, and i win the challenge. claim kills rhaegar and he triggers the response. it is now plot phase. does the other guy dies to wolf's deadly? do I get my renown on robb?

3) can I get more than 1 guardian wolf out at the same time? or just 1 per phase because it is shadow?

ahhh yes i had another question with the greatjon (core)

lets say greatjon is my last remaining character, and they attack me with a higher str. greatjon is going to die for mil claim. my desperate plan to save him is to kneel him and have him go to the opponent's side, so there is no one left to kill on my side.

heres the greatjon http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/uploads/1281901163/med_gallery_11_35353.jpg

while we're at it with the greatjon, is it possible for him to participate on both sides? I have no idea when that would that ever come in useful, but lets say I declare him normally as a defender (no ability), then stand him with frozen outpost, the trigger his ability to participate as an attcker? he's defending and attacking himself?

oh hmm I just thought of a very particular situation when that would be useful. one time that sneaky martell attacked me (mil) with arianne, who had a rusted sword if I remember correctly. I was running the siege, so i wanted my 2 pwr and defended, but then they bounced arianne off with ghaston grey, so the challenge never resolved and I didnt got my 2 powers. well lets say they bounce arianne, but only after greatjon was declared as a defender, then greatjon stand with frozen outposts and gets +4 str. attacking greatjon is at 3 str and defending greatjon is at 7 str?

oops I just realised how stupid that last one about the greatjon is. sorry for massive posts they wont let me just edit it out.

By the way, are you related to e e cummings?

Robby Stark said:

Nothing wrong with this. When he enters play, a "-X STR" modifier is applied immediately, so his STR is lowered. Since his STR is lowered, the Brothel can respond.

Robby Stark said:

You're doing responses wrong here. When you resolve a challenge, yougo through the following, in order:

1. Determine winner
2. Settle claim effect
3. Award unopposed (if applicable)
4. Award Renown (if applicable)
5. Resolve passibe effects to anything in 1-4
6. Resolve Responses to anything in 1-5

So you see, even though Rhaegar dies in #2, your opponent doesn't get to trigger his Response until #6. You have to hold all Responses when resolving a challenge until the challenge is completely resolved (and passives have been resolved). By that time, renown (#4) and Deadly (#5) have already happened.

Robby Stark said:

The "1 per phase" limit for shadows is on using the game mechanic at the beginning of the phase. It is not on triggering card effects that bring cards out of shadows.

Robby Stark said:

How the heck is that supposed to work? Jumping Greatjon into the challenge on the attacking side doesn't make you lose control of him. He's still your character. And when you lose a military challenge, you have to choose and kill a character you control, and you still control a character.

Robby Stark said:

No. A character cannot participate in a challenge more than once. If he's already participating as a defender, he cannot participate as an attacker.

Robby Stark said:

Why didn't you get your 2 power? You won the military challenge. As long as there is a participating character, the challenge continues. You cannot stop a challenge from resolving by removing all the attackers - unless there are no participating defender, either.

ktom said:

from wikipedia: ''eccentric use of punctuation and grammar'' yes I suppose that does reflect my inability to type. so does southern comfort. (pure heresy for a stark. I know.)

ktom said:

I went back to the faq and it turns out you're right about this one, but the wording is incredibly ambiguous and I feel like not biting off off this one. it's a constant effect, yes? what I had in mind is the bolton refugee/dreadfort combo

dreadfort reads: Response: After you play or take control of a House Bolton character with STR 3 or higher, draw 1 card.

since you can trigger dreadfort on a 3 str refugee (constant effect from winterfell castle) it suggests that the condition ''having played a 3 str+ bolton'' is satisfied. lets get back to rhaegar and his brothel. here, its the condition ''a character str has been reduced'' that is satisfied. and that, in my book, does not compute. I played a str 2 refugee yes? briefly later, his str is increased. I don't see why it is legal to trigger dreadfort. either that, or the refugee comes into play with his str already increased and then I can trigger dreadfort. in which case rhaegar comes into play with his str already reduced and leave my winter alone.

ktom said:

yes buuut… what if the greatjon didn't died?

ktom said:

oh well I suppose that answers a fifth question. I didnt got my 2 powers because they said since there were no attackers it ended the challenge immediately without resolution. I'll tell them ktom tells them to go bugger themselves.

The explanation of Rhaegar having had his strength reduced doesn't negate the Refugee/Winterfell/Dreadfort ruling. It just means that you could also respond to a character's strength being raised in the Refugee scenario. As for the Greatjon scenario, if you lose a military challenge, you must satisfy claim. If Greatjon is your only character, he must be chosen (the fact that he joined the attack doesn't change the fact that he is your character, so this won't save him from death). Finally, instead of telling them to bugger themselves, kindly inform them that a challenge only stops if there are no participants (attackers or defenders)

Robby Stark said:

Same thing with Rhaegar. He comes in at 5 and is immediately modified to 4. The fact that there is never a practical, actionable point at which his STR is 5 doesn't change the fact that his STR was modified, so Brothel can Respond to the modification (just like, as J_Roel says, someone could Respond to the modification of the Refugee).

Anyway, that's a long way of saying that the two examples do not conflict because while Brothel is responding to a modification of STR, Dreadfort is looking to a present value as a play restriction.

Robby Stark said:

You have to kill a character you control. You control one character. In that situation, how do you not end up with Greatjon dead for the claim of the military challenge that you lost (unopposed, even)?

Robby Stark said:

(3.30) Changing Control Mid-Challenge

If a character participating in a challenge changes control during that challenge, that character is removed from the challenge. If said character was the only character in the challenge , the challenge ends.

If that character was the only attacker or defender, that player's STR during the challenge is considered to be zero. All players may trigger effects or pay costs as long as there is at least one other participating character.

(It's pretty clear from the first part that the challenge ends if the removed character was the only character in the challenge, not the only attacker. In fact, the second part specifically says "participating character" instead of "participating attacker.")

don't worry ktom I wont tell them anything rude about you it was meant as a paraphrase