I posted this elsewhere - but I was hoping you rules guru's would be able to resolve this one - or at least give me your reasoning for what you think.

What happens when a stressed Tycho takes the daredevil action?

Tycho Celchu - you may take actions even when stressed

Daredevil - Action: perform a red 1 speed turn.

The rules for stressed say that a stressed ship cannot execute red maneuvers. (pg 17)

But, more importantly, in the rules - we also have a wacky situation of being able to place a red maneuver face down (you're not supposed to maybe? - the penalty for "revealing a red maneuver when stressed" is that the opponent may choose a new maneuver for you.

In Tycho's case - we have maybe four outcomes, but only two of which seem "intended" - Nothing prevents Tycho from taking the daredevil action, before the rules come into play saying he can't actually perform the maneuver.

1: Tycho chooses daredevil action - and then nothing happens his ship stays where it is and he has wasted his action

2: The wording of perform a turn overrides the general book rules that say you can't and he gets to take his turn anyway. (Because he can take the action when stressed , and the action said to take a maneuver)

3: Like #2 Tycho can take the action, but taking the action means the opponent gets to choose a new maneuver for Tycho.

4: Tycho just cannot choose this action.

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I think 1 and 4 are most likely - The problem I have with #3 is that the rules state reveal a red maneuver - that doesn't happen in this situation - and we already have other effects that assign a manuever without "revelaing" (the ion canon effect). Because there is no "revealed" maneuver, and the key word reveal is always used specifically with the hidden maneuver dial - the opponent should be unable to choose a new maneuver in it's place.

The only problem I have with #2 - is that it doesn't seem intended. Usually specific instances override the rules, is this situation ok with the rules?, because then Daredevil got pretty good on our Mr Tycho.

I believe in your choices it would go 4 then 3.

I believe #1 is the correct answer, mostly by looking at the others:

#2: Just because the action says to do it does not mean it overrides anything that would prevent the ship from completing the action. Can't beats can. So for instance, if you declare Expert Handling as your action but cannot barrel roll (perhaps because of position) you don't get to barrel roll anyway.

#3: There is nothing being revealed, and no dial involved, so the rule about revealing a red maneuver doesn't apply.

#4: There's really nothing to imply that you're prohibited from declaring an action which you cannot complete.

The last isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but does have some solid precedent. The FAQ entry for Expert Handling covers how you resolve the card if you can't barrel roll - the rest of the effect doesn't occur. It says nothing about Expert Handling being forbidden because you can't barrel roll, which IMHO implies pretty strongly that you can declare the Expert Handling action even if you can't finish it.

So: Nothing stopping you from declaring it, but the rule preventing a stressed ship from executing red maneuvers stops it from taking the maneuver. That makes it #1.

Looks like #1 to me, barring any anomylous ruling leading toward 2 or 4. 3 would be hilarious, but implausible.

" While a ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions)". Stress, p.17

Tycho's pilot ability:

"You may perform actions even while you have stress tokens"

Daredevil:

"Action: Execute a red [Left turn 1] or [Right turn 1] maneuver."

Tycho's pilot ability only allows him to ignore the action part of being stressed, not the maneuver part. He could choose to do the daredevil action (having a stress token doesn't bar him from taking the daredevil action) but, because it is a red maneuver, he won't be allowed to do the turn.

It would also count as his action selection as Tycho would not be allowed to back out of the action (like you can with a barrel roll).

On page 17 under stress it says opposing player. If a ship remained in place for making a mistake , people would do it on purpose to gain an advantage.

Ozmodon65 said:

Again, this only applies to maneuver selection on the dial.

What advantage is there to be gained in declaring a Daredevil that you can't complete? If I didn't want to move I suppose I could declare a Daredevil action while I was stressed, or I could do something REALLY devious - like Focus!

Stress is two parts moving and actions . Under the restrictions he can't do red moves while stressed but because his card says, he can preform actions. If he was intended to ignore both his card would of said ignore stress altogether.

I believe the scenario would be that a player playing Tycho would have a stress token and then tries to use the Daredevil action thinking that they could.

I could see a player forgetting about the movement part of the rule in the heat of the moment and trying to do it anyways.

Sergovan said:

Exactly - and if they do - what happens? - though the correct answer is probably nothing. I've not submitted this to FFG's rules questions .

I'm a little bummed that it works out that it looks to be nothing - because if the opposing player got to choose a maneuver instead - it could've lead to some sneaky and interesting uses of daredevil - that kinda make it a "dare" to activate - which is thematically interesting and cute - but im also glad that it doesn't work that way

Ravncat said:

The idea that the opponent would get to choose a new maneuver makes absolutely no sense in regards to the rules of this game. Daredevil has nothing to do with revealing a maneuver dial, therefore you are not revealing a red maneuver, meaning your opponent does not get to change the maneuver. It simply states that you get to execute a red 1 hard turn. Since the rules state you cannot perform red maneuvers you cannot perform this maneuver. And since "can't" always trumps "can" in conflicting abilities, this appears to be really cut-and-dry.

Cptnhalfbeard said:

Yeah, It does appear to be cut and dry - the reason for asking this question was deeply related to another question I asked on a different forum - that was also suggested here on the daredevil vs r2 thread . The other question seems cut and dry, but leads to a bit of ugliness in the rules - if daredevil actually causes stress or not. by a very strict literal reading of the rules - it doesn't - but the entire community (myself included) is pretty certain that it does - or at least is intended to. This question was about trying to find a second reason why the daredevil maneuver might be colored red. Since I couldn't find one - the circumstantial case for r2 not working - and for daredevil causing stress is stronger.

Ravncat said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. Honestly, I'm not sure there's any such thing as a very strict literal reading of what Daredevil tells you to do. At the very least, I can see at least 3 possible very strict literal readings. Which pretty much means there's no very strict literal reading

Buhallin said:

I think what Ravncat is talking about here (and perhaps in the "other thread" that is mentioned) is that in the core rules, checking for stress (and adding a stress token) is actually a separate step (4) of the Activation phase than the Execute Maneuver step (3). The question is, does the "Execute a … maneuver" wording on Daredevil automatically cause the next step (Check Pilot Stress) to occur?

I think we can all agree that the intent is for the stress token to be applied, otherwise why specify that it is a red maneuver?

Mind you, I'm not saying that the "stress is a separate step" argument is correct, or even valid - I think there are other holes in it. I'm just saying that I think that's what Ravncat is referring to.

Buhallin said:

Hah yeah, I hear that. I have a hard time believing that the only reason they made the maneuver in Daredevil red was so that Tycho couldn't do it while stressed, since he is the only one that could. It would only make sense that all red maneuvers were stressful. I can agree that the rulebook and FAQ are not clear on this. Stress is only checked for maneuvers in Step 4 of Activation, and actions are done at Step 6. There is a possibility this was just an oversight.

The key to everything in this thread is that daredevil says to execute a red manuever, like was mentioned once above. Compare it to boosting or barrel rolling/expert handling. Those are actions that move the ship but state that they are not executing a manuever (expert handling doesn't say this word for word but it says perfom a barrel roll and if you read barrel roll….there ya go). It is worded this way so that:

1. Fel gets a stress token with it to trigger his ability

2. Tycho can't abuse it

3. It would trigger a proximity mine, but barrel roll/boost will not.

4. Any other possible strange interactions.

I'm sure the ruling would be if you attempted this with tycho cause you forgot you couldn't or w/e, then you would just have to choose another legal action.

ziggy2000 said:

I agree that this is where he's going, but there's actually a major problem with taking this as a literal reading. Step 3, in itself, is not enough to execute a maneuver. Try and execute a maneuver without Steps 2 and 5 - go on, I'll wait It's literally impossible. If you skip Step 2, you have no template to move against. If you skip Step 5, the template stays on the board. While this might possibly be a tricky way for FFG to sell more core sets as you're forced to leave templates on the board, that seems unlikely

There really isn't a literal interpretation here. Here are three possible ways I see to read it, and the problems I see with them:

1. As ravncat says - Step 3 only. Problem is presented above

2. "Execute a Maneuver" can't be done without steps 2 and 5, so the whole process includes Steps 2-5 and catches the Check Pilot Stress phase as well. This works, but there really isn't much to actually justify it.

3. Steps 2 and 5 are "helper" steps and not literal rules. That leaves 3 for executing a maneuver. However, I think the wording on the stress phase makes it a triggered rule which goes off after any maneuver, and not just as part of the normal flow of movement. I actually think this one makes the most sense, but it's almost rewriting the rules for the activation phase.

I think all of these are at least somewhat reasonable ways to read the rules, but none of them are "literal".

Buhallin said:

Yup, and when I said I thought there were other holes in the argument, this is exactly what was going through my head.

But now, if "execute a manuever" carries steps 2-5 with it, shouldn't it carry 1 and 6 as well???

You must understand I'm not really serious about that.

I really do hope FFG ends their rules question moratorium soon and gives us answers to this and other questions we've been debating for weeks now.

I know your'e not serious, but I think it does deserve an answer

I would peg it as 2-5 because:

1. Steps 2 and 5 are an integral part of completing the maneuver. As I jokingly challenged, try and do one without 2 or 5. It just doesn't work

2. So we know we MUST have 2, 3, and 5… but what about 4? If we're going to give the linear nature of the steps any meaning, we can't just skip 4 and do what's convenient by going to 5. So 4 gets carried along too, and we have our stress.

And why do we leave out 1 and 6? 1 gets skipped because there's no dial to reveal. So even if we try to carry that step out, we can't. 6 is a little harder to justify the exclusion, but since we're pretty much in interpretive mode anyway I think everyone knows the difference between maneuvers and actions.

I agree and hope that FFG will lock down some of the timing, structure and definitions soon. They're really going to have to if the game is going to keep expanding, and sooner would be better than later. Not holding my breath on it, though.

Buhallin said:

Now that the Regionals season has officially started, I'm not sure they will be in any hurry either. What if the "offical" ruling contradicts how it was played in some of the early tournaments? What if that contradiction could have led to different tournament results? I don't think they want to have that kind of "retroactive uncertainty" floating around, but now I fear it will be no matter when the questions are answered. So far I have not seen that any of the "burning questions" have come up in the tourney reports so far, although that was only 3 or 4 out of the 12 that took place this last weekend.

To get back on topic, I guess I'm with the crowd that says Tycho can't do Daredevil when stressed. Like any other action that you can't do - Expert Handling after already doing a Barrel Roll for example, or a double Boost, or even an action that is not on your action bar -, you don't get penalized for inadvertently choosing it, you just choose another action that you can do and move on.

ziggy2000 said:

It doesn't matter if a later ruling contradicts how a rule was playing in a tournament, even if it made a litteral win/lose impact. It's been ruled, the tournaments done, the results are set; there no changing them short of the extremeist case possible. That is not reason enough to not make rulings on things. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. It is in the best interest of FFG, the community, and the organized play; to have as clear a ruleset as possible.

ScottieATF said:

I agree 100%. I hope it didn't sound like I was advocating that they NOT answer the questions, I only meant that there's bound to be some bad feelings if the rulings don't match how it was played in earlier tourneys.

Now were going completely off topic, but since I think we've exhausted the evaluation of Tycho+Daredevil, I'm OK with it

I remember a number of years ago I was watching a football game (American, just in case) with John Madden calling and it came to a 4th down play. He mentioned how when he was a coach, players would often want to go for it on 4th down. He said his response was always "You shouldn't have let it come to 4th down in the first place."

The point being (there is a point that critical moments are rarely as critical as we think they are. Nobody will win or lose a tournament based on one rules judgement, no matter how memorable. Nobody remembers that extra damage they took in Game 2 because they misjudged the turn around the asteroid, which meant that the two hits inflicted by the attacker killed it instead of just leaving it, which freed the next ship up to attack someone else instead of the ship with one hull left. But that critical point where the TO dared to decide that Kath's Ion Cannon still inflicted a stress - THAT cost the tournament!

Hopefully FFG will do something soon, regardless of anyone's stress over what it would have meant if it had come out last week. They're promoting X-wing as a very competitive game, but I'm not sure the rules set as it currently exists is up to the task. That won't be too hard to fix, but it needs to happen soon.

Hi

Come again, not to sound stupid, but which is the reason he cannot daredevil his red 1 turn, thereby gaining additional stress?

AFAIK, it says on p.17 of the rules, that the opposing player only gets to choose a maneuver if the red one was revealed during the Activation phse.

There is no revealing in Daredevil, so there is no penalty.

Simple IMHO.

Never mind I was wrong…

Greetings

Festus

Now that the FAQ say's DareDevil is a "white" maneuver I suppose Tycho can do it while stressed. Has any one answered if he is equiped with "Experimental Interface" and "Push the Limit" and has Expert Handling or DareDevil. since the both cards say "after you perform an action" does that mean a regular action or does that include an action done from one provided with either "Push the Limit" or "Experimental Interface"... in other words does this allow Tycho to take 3 actions per turn? can he barrel roll, take a focus and then boost... remove a target lock and suffer 3 stress tokens for it? or does he boost focus, barrel roll, which card takes president? PTL says action from bar, Ex Interface say's action from card.