Firstly, I admit that do find it confusing with regards to constant strenght adjustments and trying to determine whether strength has been lowered

This situaiton arose during a melee game which include two Targaryen decks - there are several cards involved

The end result was my oponent playing Pyrophobia on my character but we have differences of opinion as to whether that action was legal

For clarity I have details the exact situation (Though I can't recall who was first player, possibly my oponent)

I control the following 3 relevent cards

1. Daenerys Targaryen – Secrets of Oldtown / Gates of the Citadel - F9 - Targaryen characters you control get +1 STR.
2. Sellsword Deserter – Beyond the Narrow Sea / Chasing Dragons – F56 - (Targaryen Ally) - Characters with the Ally or Refugee trait get -1 STR.
3. Meereense Brothel - Defenders of the North / Beyond the Wall – F30 - Response: After a character's STR is lowered by a card effect, kneel Meereenese Brothel to choose and discard an attachment from play.

The Sellsword deserter has been in play for a while at its strength is 2 (Printed 2 strength, -1 for being an ally and + 1 for Daenerys)

I make a challenge against my oponent and he attaches Harried by Dragons on my Sellsword

(Harried by Dragons – Beyond the Narrow Sea / Valar Morghulis – F14 - Attached character gets -1 STR)

This takes Sellsword strength down to 1 but I immediately kneel Meeereese Brothel and discard the attachment, so that the Sellsword strength goes back up to 2

My opponent then plays Pyrophobia on my Sellsword

Pyrophobia - Secrets of Oldtown / Forging the Chain – F32 -Response: After a character's STR is reduced to 2 or lower by a card effect, return that character and all attachments on it to their owner's hand.

My opponents argument is that when I discarded the Harried attachments, Sellsword strength was recalculated and thus was reduced due to his own text (Allies get -1)

In my mind he is attempting to return Sellsword to my hand at a point where his strength has been increased, not decreased - but maybe Phyropobia is acting on the original strength reduction, before I knelt the Brothel?

There is also some doubt about the action sequence - but I assume that after Harried was played, I get first response and get to use the Brothel before my opponent gets to play Pyrophobia

thanks

Don't forget that the attachment would be moribund:discard when you trigger the Brothel and you're still in the same Response window. He would be responding to the effect of the reduction given by the attachment - so the Pyrophobia play is legit. Harried would still be discarded since it's already moribund:discard, but the Sellsword would return to hand.

So, you're right that you get first response since you are, technically, the person to the left of the person initiating an action to which you have a response.

Sorry - hit publish too quickly. I meant to add… BUT, he also gets a response because the response window hasn't closed until all players pass on taking a response.

Thanks Doulos

That raises another question:

Player A does an action - i.e. plays Harried

Player B does a response - i.e. Meereeneese Brothel

Player A also wants to do a response - i.e. Pyrophobia

By the time Player A does their response, the original affect (of Harried) has been nullified - but they can go ahead and play responses anyway?

I know you have said that the original action (Harried) is moribund - so I assume that is what is enabling the response to still be done

Not sure if this is making sense but there probably is some sort of action where this scenario occurs but there is no moribund card

Maybe:

Player A does something (kneels a card) to lower someones strength (possibly tourney grounds)

Player B responds with something that boosts the stength again (possibly He Calls it Thinking)

Player A also wants to response, (possibly Pyrophobia again) but this time there is no moribund card and the condition that they are responding to is no longer active …. is it still legit?

HastAttack said:

In this game, STR is, at all times , the total of the character's base STR and all applicable modifiers.

That means that STR is always a "present" value, never something that is calculated as the difference between past and present. So raising and lowering STR is never the result of a change in the effective value of the STR. It is always the result of applying a new modifier ("+X" for raise and "-X" for lowers). Therefore, the way to determine if a character's STR has been raised or lowered is not to compare the current STR to an old STR, but to look to see if a brand new modifier because active for the first time in this action window.

So, the "tricky" result of this is that if a character's STR starts and 4 and ends at 3, that doesn't necessarily mean its STR has been "lowered." If it goes from 4 to 3 because a new "-1 STR" modifier has been applied, its STR was lowered. But if it goes from 4 to 3 because an old "+1 STR" modifier wears off , its STR is not considered to have been lowered.

HastAttack said:

The "moribund" factor is not really controlling here, either. The Brothel and Pyrophobia are both responding to a "-X STR" modifer being added to a character in that action window. Once that modifier is added, it doesn't matter if the effective STR goes back up (because a new "+X STR" modifier is added to the same character) because the "-X STR" modifier is still there, and was still made applicable for the first time in this action window. You've added a response opportunity for "after a character's STR is raised," but you have not wiped out the response opportunity for "after a character's STR is lowered" because the -X STR modifier is still there.

However, specific to Pyrophobia, there is one additional consideration. Since it's play restrictions are "after a character's STR is reduced to 2 or lower," not only do you need a new "-X STR" modifier to have been applied for the first time in that action window, the character's effective STR has to be 2 or lower at the time Pyrophobia is played. So if A plays Harried and the "-1 STR" takes the character to 2 or less, but the first response by B adds in a "+X STR" modifier that takes the character to a STR of 3 or more, Player A woud not be able to play Pyrophobia because, even though there is still an actionable "after a character's STR is lowered/reduced" response opportunity, the character no longer meets the "2 or lower" requirement. This is because, again, STR is at all times the total of the character's base and all applicable modifiers. The game does not "remember" what the STR was when the "-X STR" was applied, it only knows the current STR of the character - which is higher than 2.

(Note that your original situation does not match this situation because, not only did the discard of Harried now change the effective STR of the character, even if it had, the character's STR would have been 2.)

It's a little confusing, sure, but when you start from "a character's STR is considered 'lowered' or 'reduced' only in the action window in which a new '- X STR' modifier is applied for the first time" and "a character's STR is considered 'raised' only in the action window in which a new ? '+ X STR' modifier is applied for the first time," the rest falls into place.

ktom, as usual, provides a clear and detailed response. Thanks, as always, ktom.

HastAttack - in your second scenario, ktom addresses it specifically. If the first response were able to raise the STR of the Sellsword to 3 or higher, then Pyrophobia's play condition would not be met and, therefore, it could not be played. This didn't apply in your original scenario, obviously.

I only brought up moribund to remind you that the attachment is still in play and affecting the character even after your response of discarding it (until the end of the Action window). But, ktom clarifies that moribund is not really the deciding factor here.

HastAttack said:

Ktom might have said this, but that's a wall of text and I'm lazy right now.

He is responding to the playing of Harried. The response window to Harried being played does not close until both players choose to pass. You discarding Harried is irrelevant to his ability to play Pyrophobia. An effect reduced a character's strength and he is allowed to play Pyrophobia in the response window to that effect almost regardless of what you do.

Thanks again - I will print out your response Ktom's and digest ….I could be a while

If I have a Shadow parasite in play (0 printed STR) and Old Maegi (draw a card when a char STR is reduced to 0).

I jumps in Sellsword deserter.

1) My Shadow parasite is now 0 -1 = 0 STR. Can I draw card with Old maegi with this trigger or is the STR reducer considered unsuccessfull because it did not actually reduce anything since STR cannot be below 0. Since it cannot, then the reducer do not apply (word "cannot" as defined in FAQ).

2) In any case, Old Maegi STR has been reduced to 0 and I draw 1 card. Then I trigger Shadow Parasite response to give him +1 STR until the end of the phase. So now his STR is 0 -1 + 1 = 0. Still total of 0, but the -1 modifier is applied successfully. So, can I trigger Old Maegi again and draw 1? From the above discussion I'd think yes.

3) If 1) and 2) both allow me to draw 1 card by responding to lowering the Shadow Parasie STR to 0, it means I can effectively draw 2 cards by responding oly to the Parasite STR being lowered to 0 depending on how I time his own response to get +1 STR and Maegi's response.

4) The ruling that says a STR has been lowered / raised only y checking applied modifiers, is it something long ruled by FFG? I know that when a STR bonus wears off its not considered lowering the STR but can't remember when it was ruled this way.

3) You cannot do that, because you can only use each response once per trigger. The Parasite's STR has been reduced only once.

Bolzano said:

The "only raised/lowered when new modifiers are applied" is really the other side of the same coin of the "not raised/lowered when an old modifier wears off" ruling that you mention.

Anyway, in your Shadow Parasite example, remember that the "0 STR" is checked at the time you trigger the Response, not necessarily at the time you apply the new modifier. (See the "Bolton Refugee/Winterfell/Dreadfort" example in the FAQ.) You are only going to be able to trigger the "after the character's STR is reduced to 0" Response one time for the character (because only one "-X STR" modifier has been applied), but you can do it at any time his STR check gives an effective STR of 0 when the "draw" Response is triggered.

ktom said:

So this?

1) Yes. The character's strength was reduced and the result was a strength of 0. This satisfies Maegi Crone's ability.

2) No. The result of the resolution of the -1 Str effect has been fully implemented before you have an opportunity to respond with Shadow Parasite gaining a strength. Maegi Crone must respond to the resolution of the triggered effect and can not simply respond to the newly applied strength calculation. It's not actually an effect, just a calculation.

From Core Set rules:

"If a character’s STR is ever lower than 0 after all
effects are applied, its STR is rounded up to 0.
Any time a new modifier is added to the mix, reevaluate
to net sum from scratch before applying
it to the base STR."

So, if my 0 STR char gets a -1 STR modifier, I guess we consider it applies successfully and only then his STR is rounded up to 0.

Or is it considered unsuccessfull and I can't draw with Maegi?

mdc273 said:

mdc273 said:

You only get to Respond once because only one "-X STR" modifier was created, but you can do it at any time during the window when the character's STR is 0 at the time the Response itself is triggered.

Bolzano said:

Bolzano said:

It's just like the Refugee/Winterfell/Dreadfort thing. The Response says "after you play a or take control of a House Bolton character with STR 3 or higher," but you don't actually look at the STR of the character played/taken control of until you trigger the Response - so it's STR when played can be less than 3 so long as it gains STR before the Response is triggered.

"0 - 1 = 0" will allow Maegi to respond, but just one time per "-X STR" modifier applied.

ktom said:

I'm confused by your response. 2) was asking if he could use Maegi Crone's ability to respond to the second instance of Shadow Parasite's strength becoming 0. Chronologically:

1) Shadow Parasite's strength is 0 and has it's strength reduced by 1 to 0.

2) Maegi Crone triggers.

3) Shadow Parasite's response triggers and has it's strength increased by 1 to 0.

4) Either Maegi Crone Triggers Or The former -1 has already been applied and does not allow Maegi Crone to trigger off of this new calculation.

That's what I was getting at. I was saying you could not trigger her again because of the latter part of the Or in 4).

mdc273 said:

Sorry for any confusion. I did not get the "Either" part in your #4 from your original answer at all. It read to me as if you were saying the Crone had to be triggered in Response to the -1 STR hitting the Parasite in your #2 or not at all .

That, of course, isn't the case. The Crone can Respond to the -1 STR hitting the Parasite any one time when Responses can be triggered during the action window, provided that the Parasite's effective STR is 0 when the Response is triggered. You didn't mean to say it, but I though you were saying that Crone had to be triggered before the +1 STR hit the Parasite, even if the effective STR was still 0.

ktom said:

Text sucks as a means of communication! Wooooooooooooooooo! (I'm totally hearing that in Bender's voice as I type it…)