Actually, Fringe Dweller, it seems obvious from some of the responses in this post that several people at least do care. I certainly do. And whilst I recognise that FFG have very little say over actual working conditions in Chinese factories, they certainly have a say in where they go for production in the first place. That's the point, really.

To those who say "It's hypocritical to ask", not at all. As a simple for instance, some might have had a recent revelation about the conditions in China, or in other parts of the world where people are being exploited in order for the Western nations to enjoy cheaper goods. If that is the case with X-wing, then I think it needs to be addressed by FFG.

With regards to the comment about Target and Walmart, et al, the difference in Western countries is that we have a minimum wage that is (generally) kept to, and whereas we have people to whom we can go to protest these working conditions, people in what is essentially indentured servitude don' have that option, that right.

To the people who talk about "well, at least it's not robots taking their jobs," I think you've misunderstood the picture that is painted of working conditions. There was a documentary recently about 5 (I think?) Westerners (British folks) who were taken over to experience some of the jobs that people in factories and the "lower" strata of work endure, and they could not stomach even a day's work there. Not even a day. Because we sit in mucher better conditions, even at the lower end of the spectrum, than Chinese workers. Just because it's a job doesn't mean it's good for you. Just because you get a wage doesn't mean it isn't killing you to work there.

The bottom line for me is this: I do have cheaper Chinese electronic devices in my house. I have cheaper clothes in my wardrobe. And I don't want to buy them any more. I'm hoping that I will have the courage to not by cheap goods in the future, and have started down that road with Fair Trade or equivalent goods wherever possible. I have been lured in by cheap Chinese stuff, and I hope that, in the interests of the workers who endure terrible conditions in places like China, that I will be able to walk away from them.

Therefore, I would like to know something of the conditions that the workers making these recreational items for us have. I would like perhaps an assurance from FFG that the workers are being treated fairly in accordance with human rights treaties and being paid a fair wage for the hours they make. I don't think that's too much to ask, is it?

So fine you do care, what are you going to do about it then? Talk about it here? Write a letter to your local politician? Stop playing this and every other game that has the slightest hint of being sourced from a third world slave camp, just to make a point. I bet you all my collected made in China junk you don't do anything but be mad at this post and call me a troll.

It makes me laugh that a westerner like yourself can get alll huffed about an anonymous person in China with a paying job, food on the table and a state paid roof overhead and you live in a country that has so many homeless trying to stay alive in the freezing snow under a sheet of cardboard. A country obsessed with purchasing all its goods at cut prices, at any cost. Imperialist countries like USA, UK, France, Germany and Spain have been ****** the rest of the world for centuries and now someone with a cupboard full of Chinese made toys opens his eyes says,"ooh ah" and gets a concience about it. Well sorry mate your good christian guilt will only last the same timespan as until the next shiney toy appears on the market. This whole argument is a total croc, nobody cares or should I say nobody really cares long enough to do anything about it. I certainly don't and I wont let it spoil my game of X-wing either. Tell you what I will buy all the X wing toys you have at the same price you bought them for to help you on your pilgrimage to enlightenment. Then you can honestly say youhave removed the burden from your conscience. NOT!

Fringe Dweller said:

Wow, maybe it's time to consider taking a break from the keyboard for awhile. Seriously - what business is it of yours what other people choose to care about? Obviously you don't care, and obviously some other people do. Leave it at that.

You've got regionalist prejudice, religious prejudice, and some serious anger issues. No one is trying to make you care. Let it go.

Fringe Dweller said:

I'm sorry you feel that way, Fringe Dweller. I'm not sure where you are from, but having lived in the backblocks of Thailand, the Philippines and Malaysia for about 3 years, along with some of the more 'glamourous' places in those countries and Singapore, I can tell you from first-hand experience that things are bad. I hope that I will be able to make a difference, even if it's a small one, to someone out there.

And if you want to play troll, that's fine too.

Fringe Dweller said:

The people on the streets in my country, Australia, are just as anonymous as those Chinese people, sadly. And they will stay that way until someone does something about it. For my part, I give where I can on my reasonably small income, as well as supporting initiatives like Fair Trade produce. And I can own the fact that my Imperialist ancestors have been "****** the world" as you put it. That's part of the motivation to stop the whole thing. Just because it was done in the past doesn't make it right now.

I'm sad that you say you don't care, when someone has obviously struck a nerve. I'm glad for that and hope that you will think a bit more about where your products come from in the future. I for one do care, and will continue to care as much as I can until things are better. Despite the desire I have to buy this stuff at ridiculously cheaper prices (the $15 vs. $30-40 that Boomer_J mentioned), I still think that workers are worthy of good, adequate wages and conditions.

The other thing is that only by posting threads like this or by emailing FFG directly will action be taken. This was shown to be true with the Fair Trade chocolate campaign that happened a couple of years ago. People emailed one of the large companies that makes chocolate stuff here in Australia so much that they changed to Fair Trade chocolate in their main brand line. It was great. Perhaps with enough support, FFG will either show that everything is fine or move to a different production company…

Anyway, enough said. I've got an email to write now. Thanks for the encouragement to follow this up, Fringe Dweller. And thanks to th0rn for bringing it up.

radiskull said:

I would suggest that, when someone comes onto a message board and bangs on about a subject like this, demanding that FFG produce a statement about working conditions in Chinese factory where its products are made (I mean, go back and read the OP if you've forgotten how all this started), other people -- like the guy you are now attacking -- have every right to comment on what was said. And you know what? He's perfectly correct about people having whole houses full of "Made In China" stuff then, suddenly, getting a conscience… about some toy TIE fighters, of all things, and suddenly demanding statements from FFG, etc. It's silly.

I bet the guys at FFg are sitting backing LMFAO at this thread.

DoubleNot7 said:

I would like to hope so, myself

Your wrong pal. I dont have political, goegraphical, religous or anger issues. I may be a troll and maybe not. I could be an anarcist or I could be a crewman on the Steve Irwin. I do have one issue though and its with puffy white soft handed liberals that sit around in tea partys stuffing their mouths with scones, jam and cream and little iced cakes talking about the starving black babies in Africa. If you want to impress, start the thread with " hey I just found out this………. Here is the evidence and I'm going to do something about it. Who's going to join me?". To me youre a doer because you have done some hard work. But to ask with a lame passing observation/ speculation without evidence, well just pass the sugar will you. To me thats just starting rumours and inuendo, Andrew Bolt stuff. That and the typical camp follower comments well thats pi$$ weak talk.

I said I don't care welll I didn't say I wasn't concerned. If I cared that would mean I would get up and do something about it. I'm concerned, means I may be aware of it but I couldn't be bothered enough to worry or dwell upon it. In my experience people who talk like the original poster and his band of tea party camp followers do nothing but that. And sirs you have my full contempt. Ooh those angle food cakes do look nice!

"I bet the guys at FFG are sitting backing LMFAO at this thread."

Or another, however unlikely, scenario is that FFG considers the wider implications that could, in a worst case scenario, happen. Namely, that after a public campaign against them, they are forced to move production to more expansive factories, therefore seriously cutting down their profit margin. While a large company might survive a move like that, for a small toy maker it can be a death sentence. So, aside from depriving millions of people from enjoying games, did these bleeding hearts accomplish anything else? Sure! They also put a couple hundred people (both in China and in the U.S.) on the street with no jobs. All because they thought they needed to fight other people's battles, even though those other people did not ask them to do so!

I wonder what some of the posters in this thread would say if one of those Chinese workers said something like this: "You people need to mind your own business and not stick your noses into ours. Who are you to say that I cannot have a job because my working conditions somehow offend your pretentious, egotistic worldview. Shut your mouth, enjoy your little, toy spaceships, and let me bring food to my family!"

Calm down…

When i saw the first Y-Wing on the shelf, the first thing i said was: "Oh those chinese children did a good job on their 14 hour shifts, i hope they won't whip them until it's really necessary."

No, really they probably are the modern counterparts to slave-labourers (no irony intended with the Slave-1). I still bought many ships and enjoy the game very much. I mean there are so many luxuries we could not afford in the western world were there not these workers in China and elsewhere. We can not change this. After all whole industries wander off to China because labour is cheap there. This happens everywhere and you can elect whomever you want, it won't change the slightest thing. You can not buy their products (if at all possible) or work for Amnesty international. You still won't change a thing.

The only thing that will change anything is time. Like everywhere in the world, chinese workers will at some point realize their strength and they will want more money more rights etc. They will perhaps start a revolution or get their will. Who knows… And then the industry will wander off to even cheaper labour, in Africa or who knows where… That's how the world goes and i won't blame FFG for producing in China to keep prices low. They have to to be profitable. But i still feel pity for the people that work in awful conditions and that don't get paid accordingly.

wow… there are some harsh reactions to my question.

First of all. Caring matters! As a customer you can base your purchase decision not only on price but also on the impact a product has on its enviroment. This is the power a consumer has. If you do not care, as some of the replies here brazenly indicate, you simply buy. In doing so you directly support the whole circumstances under which said product came to existens. I myself like to know that my hobby purchases do not have the implications of someone poisioned because of missing inhalation protection for example.This is no matter of communism or globalism or an argument against rigid capitalist structures. This is merely an inquiry to enable responsible behavior.

Second of all. Owning something which was unknowingly produced in a "Sweatshop" does not mean that one looses the moral ground to ask questions regarding said circumstances. Calling it hypocrital does not invalid the question itself. It is just a false "ad hominem" argument. Furthermore so as you do not know me nor my consumer behavior.

Third of all. FFG is a global player in the gaming world. They make remarkable products i enjoy tremendously. When they can guarantee that their products are made under humane working conditions i will gladly purchase their X-Wing product line models.

th0rn said:

So, just clarifying, you list X-Wing as a game you own, over there on the left… yet are saying in your post you won't buy it until you get this special treatment "statement" from FFG? Yeah… I'm not sure the company's going to go out of it's way on this. Just a hunch I have…

Oh I see now, so you can have your cake that you bought by haggling the lowest price, then not only eat it but afterwards you can then read the label, find out it wasn't what you thought and spit it out and still save your social morality. Sort of like bullemia, another misguided disorder. Hey genius! Savy shoppers I know read the labels before they buy that way they don't get suprised by a bad unexpected taste in their mouths.

I gotta hand it to you people out there the way you go through life so full of ignorance of the real world and the way things really are. The expectation that things are cheap because they are painted by robots, what a bunch of tools you all are. Get it in to your small blinkered brains. If its cheap its because its made by low income workers on povety wages in third world conditions. Oh yeah and if its hand painted its likely that its got toxic pigments in it too. Oh you haven't varnished your models before you played with them or put them in your mouth well silly you. The contract did go to the cheapest tender remember. A few years ago a Chinese company made sweets that were bulked out with melamine, you know the stuff that counter tops are made from nasty stuff. I think they executed the factory manager that time. Customs often test plastic childrens toys from China that has toxic components. Mattel and Disney were both caught out because the red pigment in paints used on infant toys were extremly high in lead. Its Ok though cause most went to the USA so the rest of us were safe.

Now ladies do you like sugar in your tea of can I offer you some more cake?

I don't really understand why people are getting so angry over this question. (Aside from the whole need to troll, I suppose.)

Personally, I'm all for available information. Will it change the world overnight, transform everybody's purchasing habits, and allow us all to frolic through a field of rainbows and bunny rabbits in peaceful harmony? Of course not. But being able to make an informed choice at least allows those who do feel strongly about trying to limit their participation in exploitative systems to exercise their main power as consumers to buy something else.

And for those of us who will buy the minis regardless of origin, such knowledge doesn't do any harm (heck, those for whom it's a non-issue probably wouldn't even think to go looking for it). No point feeling personally guilty over a society-wide flawed system; only thing you can do is either change your habits because you have a strong enough desire for long-term change that it's worth the personal inconvenience, or not.

Plus some of us are just downright curious about the process behind what are obviously complicated and highly-detailed miniatures. Even if they glossed over the working conditions at their plant (which is telling in and of itself, I suppose), I would be fascinated to hear some details about how they managed to mass-produce such finely detailed models.

Exactly. I would like to see some kind of "Behind the Scenes of the X-Wing Miniatures Game Production".

pitsch said:

Agreed with this.

And as others have said, nobody's forcing them to work, so why does it matter to me under what conditions they earn a living and put food on the table? If they're happy working, then good on them. Now hurry up and pump them out faster to meet demand.

th0rn said:

You're wrong, it is EXACTLY a matter of capitalism and globalization.

I am not saying no one would buy the game if it was a little more expensive, but you don't honestly believe the workers would see a dime of that.

Caring matters? Well i am not one of those saying i am not going to elections since my voice won't be heard anyway, but there is strictly nothing we can do about industries wandering off to third and second world countries. They don't care what you or i say, it's about money. Workers in china will get exactly the rights and money they will fight for, like workers in industrialized countries have done before.

I am not saying i don't regret that it works this way but sadly it does. Well if FFG read this thread perhaps they will react to it, that would be a good sign. But honestly i don't expect them to do so, neither do Apple or other Corporations producing in Asia…

Its ok for me if the miniatures are produced in china or even in timbuktu. But PLEASE (!!!) put a quality end control in there! Every second X-Wing has at least one misplaced laser and it seems that the solar collectors of every single Tie-Fighter aren't symmetric. From MY experience, ALL production 'made in china' actually HAD issues with quality

th0rn said:

So you want to impose your views on worker rights on other in another country? Sounds a bit pretensious to me. I've met workers in another country who had to hide their menial labor jobs for fear death to themselves and their families, they risked torture, beheadings, death, etc… and did so happily to have the chance to carve out a meager living for their family and feed their children. Not every Iraqi is a soldier, insurgent, or extremist. They wanted the chance to survive in a harsh world, but I guess their conditions do not meet with your approval.

I'm not saying this to attack you but rather keep an open mind that not everything in the world will fall in line with how you deem they should be. To quote another SF franchise: 'It is the order of things".

You can always book some airfare to China and go inpect persoanlly too.

So if you knew workers in China making FFG products were not treated to your satisfaction, would you still purchase FFG products?

To the OP:

Caring is nice, but doesn't matter as much as you think it might. Reality is the real world where the rest of us live, choices are made by those in power, usually taking the path of least resistance and netting the biggest gain. That's they way most things work. Civilizations rise and fall, species go extinct, the strong or rich dominate the weak and poor. Your "caring" is a conscious mental game you are playing with yourself to make you feel like you have control or can influence things you really can't. Your caring is a butterfly fart in a hurricane of reality.

When a product says "Made in china" this usually tells me all I need to know… Might as well say "may or may not be made under dangerous conditions by workers over the age of 5, who work 14 hour shifts 7 days a week". At that point I AM informed. Do you honestly believe their are "humane working conditions" and equitable pay, benefit and healthcare considerations as compared to other first world countries ANYWHERE in China? If so, why is FFG making them in China instead of domestically?

Speaking of "humane working conditions"… Humane is a very geographically and culturally relative word. Some people in the US consider not allowing convicts serving time for murder to have regular access to televisions or Ice cream for dessert as "Inhumane". One the other side of the world, not allowing your prisoner to starve to death is being "Humane". I'm not saying the other side of the world is in the right here, just that maybe you shouldn't be pushing your morals, values, judgements and expectations on the rest of the world, cause you might be off base too.

And to clarify, yes I'm calling you a hypocrite. i dont need to know you our your spending habits to know some things… You have access to a computer almost assuredly wear clothes made in third world countries. You drive a vehicle that was either made in a foreign country or had a substantial number of parts coming from a foreign country. Ever drink coffee… Don't get me started. For you to be truly innocent you would have to be living in a cave eating wild berries and tree bark. Don't give me that "I may have been an unknowing consumer" line either, cause all I hear is " I was either naive or to lazy to check it out prior to purchasing" and now I feel guilty so I feel compelled to "Make a Difference" by Trolling. I know my hands are dirty, and I can live with that and own it. If you can't, take a close look, a really close look at your own lifestyle, surroundings and property before you start spouting your liberal agenda B.S. on this and other forums. Yeah, I see you over there too.

A well meaning god fearing missionary and his daughter went to preach the gospil to poor ignorant heathens on a Pacific paradise. Upon arrival at his chosen island destination he quickly saw that the local population didn't where clothes and his teenage daughter was sneaking glances at the local boys nakedness and the public fornication of the "adults". This is no good he thought and he went and bought clothes for the whole child popluace and forced them to wear them using the fear of being beaten by a cane as his chosen method of persuasion. When it rained the children got wet and then became cold in the clothes but they feared the wrath of the missionary and his cane and so continued to wear the wet clothes. The children started getting sick and all of them ended up dead from various pneumonic illnesses. The missionary could not see that his actions caused the destruction, and blamed the illness on the wickedness of their heathen culture and public fornicating …………………………….. and so on until the population rised up, killed him and his daughter and ate them in ritual sacrifice.

We toss our standards, ethics and morals about thinking we are smarter and better than every other culture on the planet and we do so much damage in our ignorance. Then we wonder why they hate us with a passion so powerfull that they will even martyr themselves for their cause.

Worry more about your own household and leave your neighbours to themselves.

Really, Fringe Dweller? A fable? Okay…

"A well-meaning Westerner saw two young immigrant children playing on the road. 'I'm so glad those immigrant children are playing on the road, just like they did back in their home country. I'm glad I am not imposing my cultural bias on them.' Moments later the children were hit by a bus and died."

Cultural domination is one thing, protection for those who have no voice is another. Our history has a couple of key examples: the abolition of slavery (which was brought about by "well-meaning" liberals) and the introduction of child-protection laws during the Industrial Revolution (again, by those meddling liberals). Neither example was introduced by those primarily affected, and each had an effect on the economy of the time. Would you like to repeal those laws and let nature take its course? I'm not sure many others would join you, if you said yes.

To DoubleNot7, this statment confused me somewhat, and if possible, I'd like some clarification: " I've met workers in another country who had to hide their menial labor jobs for fear death to themselves and their families, they risked torture, beheadings, death, etc… and did so happily to have the chance to carve out a meager living for their family and feed their children." Why were they hiding their menial labour jobs? And what did that entail, exactly?

Regardless of why they were hiding those jobs, would you not want them to enjoy better conditions in their workplace, with some of the same benefits that Western workers enjoy? Would not $2 extra an hour for workers be better than none? Wouldn't 10 hour days be better than 14 hour days? Wouldn't safer workplaces be better than unsafe workplaces? I don't see what the Big Cultural Doom is in this particular debate…

Can a moderator just delete this thread.

The question still stands:

I, and supposedly many more gamers, would like to know if FFG takes an interest in or even knows of the circumstances of their production in China regarding working conditions and safety issues. The Question is: Do their products come into existence without the exploitation of labour and negative impact for health and life of the workforce.

This question is imperative for my further purchase decisions of FFG Products. I reckon this question is important for a lot of gamers. No answer or a negative one might even turn into a "shitstorm" in a well connected community affecting future sales.

The X-Wing product line stands for itself in the quality of the prepainted models. The huge commercial success is undeniable. FFG has a chance here. A little transparency could go a long way in building trust and a positive image. They should take the chance and show us gamers that they take care and not only our money.

Now some responses:

Delta Echo:

There is a chance that you miss my point. You react like a lot Americans would do. There is a deep rooted Dualism in American Culture. But there are not only two valid views of the world. In other words: I do not have some kind of 'liberal agenda' nor do i impose any morals as you call it on workers in China. I am not trying to change the hard reality i am well aware of. Calling me a hypocrite invalids your argument and your position in a discourse on an equal level. Even more so as you impose a slippery slope argument on my existenz as consumer in a western country. There is no need for me to prove to you that as a person i do indeed have the moral right to ask such a question. Just one thing. This is the first and only time i have asked this and considered the FFG Forums as the right place. I have no idea what other Forum you mean. (but it goes a long way showing paranoid behavior).

Fringe Dweller: I stopped reading your entries as you obviously have neither something constructive to contribute nor an interest to do so. Don't feed the troll i say.

DoubleNot7: As i said i am not imposing any morals on chinese workers. My question is adressed to FFG as only they have a saying in where they produce and under which conditions. As a company you can go with the lowest bidder, who is likely to reduce costs on the shoulder of his workforce, or you can go with the firm that treats their workers as fu*%ing human beeings. This might be more expensive for you, but seeing that FFG makes good profit with X-Wing and realizing that their customers do indeed want a fairly produced game, you as a company have the power ( and of course the money) to change things for the better.

Please people. The question stands. You may not care or you may want to attack me on a personal level. But please refrain from doing so and contribute on a constructive and objective level. This is not about me.

Have you tried contacting FFG for an aswer to your question? It seems like the more logical approach then to have people either support / not support this thread, and you not get an answer you are looking for.