Yes that part you stated is true, but really then they define in what I quoted from the rulebook as speed is only indicated on the dial. So that creates a major issue in that are they just referencing use this template like they do with barrel roll?

So lets follow your train of thought that speed is always associated with the manuever no matter what. So that brings us back to what Ziggy posted from the FAQ. That the upgraded takes presidence over downgrade. I will admit what following is going to be a bit shakey logic.

1) Daredevil and Ion Cannon are upgrading manuevers you normally have access to, or they are upgrading you to have access to manuevers you normally don't. Albiet that they are tied to actions.

I was going to do a stupid extremely thin logic jab using the upgrade bar as a joke.

The FAQ for this game is going to end up being bigger then the rulebook sometime soon. Might be an issue with the rules light thing they went with or just assuming everyone would see it the same way that they do.

Really I am just playing devil's advocate to your positon some. I can clearly see where you are coming from, and also see it being ruled either way by different people. After all they did put that nifty little mechanic in for handling disputes in the rulebook for situations like this.

Hopefully they will address this very soon, as it does seem to be a worthy question for them to answear. Just a shame that they haven't replied to rules inquiries in a while.

It doesn't say that speed is ONLY indicated on the dial. The speeds that are (normally) available to a ship are shown on the dial. That doesn't mean that speed doesn't exist outside the dial.

I think it's important to read this in the context of the rules as they're being presented, which is based on the maneuver dial and how they're printed there. If you go too far down that road you could just as easily argue that Daredevil's maneuver isn't red, because the arrow is black and the rules say The color of the bearing arrow indicates each maneuver's difficulty . No arrow color, no difficulty, right?

In all honesty I don't think X-wing is all that bad. There are only about 3-4 problematic cases I can think of which present truly unresolved rules issues. Note that I don't consider cases like this one of them - people not liking the answer, or thinking it's too powerful if it works like that, is not the same as an unresolved issue. I've been a heavy player of both Warmachine and Malifaux in the past, and X-wing's got nothing on them. Heck, you could take every pilot skill and every upgrade and combine them and there would still be a couple of Malifaux models that get close to having more abilities. And before they went to Mk II, the FAQ for Warmachine was something over 100 pages, and another 20 pages of unresolved questions.

So yeah, we're really not doing all that badly

Did anyone ever post this - or my other daredevil questions via the rules submit? I recently (this morning) got back a question I checked just around the time this thread was new….

I sent the R2 vs Daredevil question through a week or so back via the 'Rules Questions' link at the bottom of the page. I haven't heard anything back on it.

It is a bit of a shame that their doesn't appear to be any offical FFG presence on the rules forum. this is a very fun game but concidering a bunch of minrues players are going to pick this up and disect the rules to the nth degree, you would think they might show up to put out some of the flame wars

As to DeadInkPen's comment on the speed maneuvers.

I would tend to disagree that this applies to only the maneuver dial. Should this be the case, then there is no defintion within the rule book for what a [Colour text] [Arrow, Number] on a card means. I would be happy to be proven inccorect on this case.

Haven't looked through all the pages of this thread but I think it's worth noting (again??) that an X-Wing with R2 and Daredevil still have to roll 2 Attack Dice and suffer any/all damage rolled regardless of the R2 unit, so it could be a very short lived experience with/without the R2 to remove the stress.

However I do firmly believe that R2 DO NOT overrule the redness of the Daredevil maneuver: I base this opinion on the related Q&A of the latest FAQ:

Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship’s turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2-speed turn maneuvers.

1: The X-Wind doesn't HAVE the 1 Turn (only 1 straight and 1 bank) to begin with, Daredevil enables it to do the maneuver

2: Regular X-Wings cant have the Elite Pilot Talent (EPT), only Luke and Wedge have that slot vailable, none of the Y-Wing have EPT. And since no other ships have the Astromech slot available this JUST makes this an issue for Luke/Wedge.

3: In my optics the Q&A on the R2 example (and it is just ONE example mind you) is similar or close "enough" to cover the issue at hand.

So to conclude on my behalf: I think that R2 will not be able to "overrule" the redness of Daredevil for Luke or Wedge, therefor they will

A: Be stressed

B: Roll for damage (unless Engine Upgraded)

Forensicus said:

"Haven't looked through all the pages of this thread" is unfortunately the problem. I think the consensus is that R2 does override Daredevil, because it doesn't increase the difficulty of the maneuver (as per the FAQ), it just states that the maneuver is red. If that same maneuver were on the dial, then R2 would certainly override it. Contrast it with the wording of R2 Astromech and the Damage card in question which state "treat all X maneuvers as Y"; that is an increase or decrease.

Earlier in the thread I was highly critical of this but I've been convinced otherwise by the arguments presented.

First, only Wedge/Luke can execute the combo, and requires Engine Upgrade not to shake their fighter to pieces in short order. Secondly, it doesn't actually allow you to remove a stress token since you can't take the action if you *are* stressed, it just allows you to not take a stress token. So, really, it's semantically equivalent to a White Maneuver. I have a faint expectation that FFG might intend for maneuvers of a fixed difficulty created by card effects to fall under the FAQ entry you cited, but right now they simply don't. FFG may or may not address this in a future FAQ. As it is an edge case with only middling utility (I've played it and while it's fun I wouldn't call it competitive) I wouldn't be surprised if that remained just speculation.

R2 does turn the daredevil into a green move per James Kniffen..

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=331&efcid=6&efidt=816065

does niem nunb change the white foreward 1 from an ion token into a green? this seems a simmilar situation.

I would consider this a yes.

Ion token – Activation stage

The owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a white [ forward 1 ] manuever. After executing this maneuver……

I think it has pretty much been established that, unless it states otherwise (e.g. Boost action), performing a maneuver is considered a maneuver.

Nien Nunb

You may treat all [ forward ]maneuvers as green maneuvers.

Similar to the Astromechs ability would make this green.

You may treat all 1 and 2 speed manuevers as green maneuvers.