hothie said:

Nah, man, I'm not missing it. Noticing it is what originally gave me the idea. Once again- your stance on this currently was my original stance on the topic.

Ok, I've gone back through my email and found the reply from my friend. It's basically the same thing I've been saying in this thread, but there are a few points that my friend makes more effectively than I do. And if anyone's interested, I'd be happy to forward you our entire email chain, though at this point, it's probably kind of pointless as I think we're at the same point in this discussion as me and my friend were when I relented.

This is from 12 March.

… and now would be a great time to tell me how to edit a post. Apologies for the language in the last paragraph. Completely glossed over it when I was copy/ pasting.

Cid_MCDP said:

Right above the post, on the right side of the header bar, there should be an 'edit' button next to the reply number and the date. It'll only be visible for a limited time.

Bummer. Thanks for the tip though!

You can also click the "report to the moderator" link and then change the "reportar" in the resulting URL into "editar"

Ok, so here's a question for people who think the ion cannon hitting jumps back in time and retroactively cancels already canceled results (and takes away the stress token that the defending ship already has in the process): by that interpretation shouldn't that clause on the ion cannon also cancel all future results as well? If you're not limiting it to the results that exist at the time the text is executed, where are you getting your limits to its power?

dbmeboy said:

I don't understand your back to the future arguement. Where is there any time travel?

The argument is that the ion cannon goes back and cancels the results that defense dice already canceled before they could cancel them somehow, right?

So, I assume your arguement is that the Ion Cannon effect is resolved in the Deal Damage step and not the Compare Results step? Or possibly at the end of the Compare Results step after all canceled dice are removed?

I am currently working under the assumption that the effect pre-empts the Deal Damage step and is part of the Compare Results step, because the last line of step 6 in the Compare Results step of the combat phase says "All abilities that allow players to cancel dice must be resolved at the start of the “Compare Results” step."

So technically yes, I guess the Ion Cannon allows you to bend time and space by following the written rule, because it cancels dice results, thus moving its effect to the begining of the Compare Results step, which happens before the canceled dice are removed.

Ion Cannon (3)
Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results.

I am less on the fence about this mechanism.

I think you roll the dice to determine whether it would result in a hit, then ALL the dice results are canceled as the effects of the Ion Cannon are administered.

My only remaining doubt now is as to whether the Ion Cannon's dice canceling is considered an 'ability' (which I assume it is).

So here's a question for you: in a completely non-ion cannon example, attacker rolls one "hit" result and defender rolls two "evade" results. Does that attack hit? Why or why not?

@ paradox - did you edit something in your post? The forums are acting like you did. [Line break here, which for some reason won't appear when I post from my phone.]

Cheating and answering my own question: You don't hit your target when you have more "hits" than "evades." You hit when there are uncanceled "hit" results. The ion cannon's text cannot kick in until after you have already canceled attack results because that's when you determine whether or not the attack hit. If you try to apply its text earlier, you just made ion cannons crazy powerful because any number of "hit" results will be a hit regardless of the defender's rolls - the "hit" results are still uncanceled at that point and that's all it takes to count as a hit.

Apples and oranges, but I'll bite because I like the way you examine the rules.

In a normal attack, the results are obvious; [evades] cancel and remove [hits] and [criticals] in step 6.

In the case of the Ion Cannon, step 6 is approach with the knowledge that ALL the dice results are to be canceled, even as we enter step 1.

In step 2-5, the dice are rolled and modified to try to determine whether the Ion Cannon attack results in a hit.

We then enter step 6 with the first cancel dice ability, which is from the Ion Cannon. We now approach all other aspects of the step with the knowledge that ALL dice results are to be cancelled. This according to the last line of step 6 happens before anything else in the Compare Results step.

So according to the very clear statement, " All abilities that allow players to cancel dice must be resolved at the start of the “Compare Results” step," everything we are about to do is going to be considered canceled.

With that knowledge, we follow the procedural steps of determining if the attack results in a hit. We then may cancel [hit] or [crit] results to determine if the attack would be considered a hit. But knowing that time travel is not possible in the Star Wars Universe, none of the following possible cancelled criticals can go back and supersede the effect of the Ion Cannon which will cancel ALL dice results before the Deal Damage step.

So, regardless of which dice were cancelled or not during the determining a hit procedure, in the case of a "miss" nothing happens, and in the case of a hit the defender suffers 1 damage and recieves 1 ion token. Anything else that the dice may have implied is wiped away, because ALL of those results were technically cancelled before we compared them.

Combat Phase:

1. Declare Target: The attacker chooses which enemy ship he wishes to attack.
2. Roll Attack Dice: _{The attacker rolls a number of attack dice equal to his ship’s primary weapon value (red number), unless using a secondary weapon (see “Secondary Weapons” on page 19).}
3. Modify Attack Dice: _{Players can spend action tokens and resolve abilities that reroll or otherwise modify attack dice results.}
4. Roll Defense Dice: _{The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to his ship’s agility value (green number).}
5. Modify Defense Dice: _{Players can spend action tokens and resolve abilities that reroll or otherwise modify defense dice results.}
6. Compare Results: _{Players compare the final attack and defense dice results to determine if the defender was hit and how much damage it suffers.}
7. Deal Damage: _{If the defender was hit, it loses shield tokens or receives Damage cards based on the damage it suffers.}

dbmeboy said:

I changed several instances of the word 'phase' to 'step' for consistency as well as pluralized 'effect' to 'effects' in the 2nd to last paragraph.

dbmeboy said:

Cheers! Will give that a shot when I get a chance.

As for your timing question, again man, the steps are executed in an order within step 6, but from a game mechanics perspective all that stuff happens at the same time. That's all he's saying. There's no time travelling.

Time travel is more of a Star Trek thing really…

I guess I disagree with your interpretation of the ion cannon as an effect that takes effect if you are going to hit. The card clearly says that its effect happens if you hit, not if you are going to hit. As far as the timing with respect to the "beginning of compare results" phrase: this would be a case where a card contradicts the rules… which the rules also cover and say that the card wins. Therefore, I don't see any reason to add in funny juggling instead of just applying the text at the time when the specified condition is met.

Sorry for the double post, but using a real keyboard now:

The crux of my argument is from the definition of hitting (uncanceled [hit] or [crit] results) and the text on the ion cannon ("if this attack hits…").

If you are applying the text of the Ion Cannon before canceling [hit] results with [evade] results, then you have somehow determined that the attack has hit before canceling [hit] results with [evade] results.

If you are canceling [hit] results with [evade] results and determining whether or not you hit before applying the Ion Cannon (which is what I think should be done), but then going back and uncanceling the results that were previously canceled only to cancel them again with the Ion Cannon… I'm not sure what else to say there.

I contend that the Ion Cannon text should apply at the point when it is triggered: when the attack hits. To do that, you must have already canceled [hit] results with [evade] results and had at least one [hit] or [crit] result uncanceled. I cannot think of any other effect in the game that you can utilize because you know the triggering condition is going to happen in the future, instead of when the condition actually happens.

After reading 3 pages of comment, the rules still seem clear to me.

1. Roll to hit

2. Roll Evades and cancel hits

3. Any uncancelled hits trigger the Ion Cannon.

4. Apply Ion Effects at this point.

5. If the Ion Cannon cancels any crits, Kath's effect is not triggered.

If you cancel a crit in #2 above her effect is triggered.

The only difference between this and shooting the Y-Wing or Firespray cannon is does Kath's effect trigger and that ONLY triggers if the defender cancels a crit, which can only happen in #2 above.

dbmeboy said:

I think there may be a common misplay to the game (especially outside of tournaments) - where both people roll dice at the same time - and compare the results - but leave them in place - they don't actually remove dice - as instructed. (or roll attack and modify, then roll defense and modify) In these situations - it's alot easier to read cancel all results - as cancelling everything on the table - and alot easier to view the ion canon as - ahh it would have hit - so this… by playing in this non strict way - all dice remain on the table as rolled - and having never actually "cancelled" the dice - your odd time travel state appears to exist.

dbmeboy is right.

Cards never change anything unless they say they do. For some, this is an ongoing ability. For others, it requires a trigger based on some conditions. Once those conditions are met, the effect goes off immediately - not later on down the road, not a few turns from now or a few phases from now, immediately. It also doesn't go back and change anything that has previously happened, unless it very explicitly says so.

The condition for the Ion Cannon is in the first line. "If this attack hits." Until that condition is met, the card does nothing - it might as well not exist. You cannot determine the effect until you resolve all dice cancelation.

What happens when it triggers? Among other things, you cancel all results. Even if we're going to grant that the Ion Cannon somehow goes back and cancels the dice that have already been canceled, that doesn't mean the defender didn't cancel the critical. At the absolute worst, the die ends up canceled twice.

Now, to the lawyers:

"Also, I disagree that "this all occurs before the ion cannon text is triggered". As an algorithm it happens before, but "algorithmically" and "as a game mechanic" are two different things. For example, simultaneous attack. One attack algortihmically has to be performed before the other, but in terms of game mechanics they occur at the same time. If all of this stuff happens in Step 6, then it all happens at the same time, as part of the same step. If the ion cannon cancels all die results, it cancels all of them, including the "cancelled" ones. Another example is rolling dice. You have to roll reds before you can figure out what the result of greens will be, but as far as the game mechanic is concerned these happen at the same time."

No. Not even close. A THOUSAND TIMES no.

Simultaneous attacks are not simultaneous. They occur in order, and are governed by specific rules for how to resolve that, but they aren't "simultaneous". One goes off first, then the other, and all the effects of the first exist. You roll attack dice first because the appear in a previous step - it is strongly and strictly ordered.

There is no difference between "algorithmic rules" and "game mechanics". The rules define the mechanics, and the algorithm carries it out. Just because multiple things occur in the same step does not make them simultaneous and interchangeable in any way.

Ravncat said:

Ravncat said:

I'll admit that it's entirely possible that the word "all" means "any filled explosion symbol or unfilled explosion symbol results." I'm not a mind reader, I don't know the Devs personally to ask what they meant- that could very well be the intent. I just wish that's what they would have printed on the card, if that's actually what they meant. Hopefully we'll find out soon when the rules guys from FFG respond to one of us who have submitted this conundrum for their review.

Englishpete- I think if this was as straightforward as you make it out to be, Hothie wouldn't have started this thread. He's got a good handle on the rules, he's a big part of the tournament scene. He could have kept the idea to himself and sprung it on somebody at Regionals.

He didn't though. Instead, he started this thread.

Just like I didn't just sit on the idea when it occurred to me either. Instead, I went and consulted my buddies on whether or not it seemed legal. I suspect Hothie's done the same thing and probably gotten the same response he's seeing on here. Rather than just give up on the idea like I did, he brought it here and asked the forum.

Something in the back of our heads, and likely a lot of other people judging by all the search referrals I get for "Kath Scarlet + Ion Cannon" on TheMetalBikini.com, says that this isn't how this works . Something in our heads says that although it seems like we're reading the cards right and everything should be kosher, it just isn't- it can't be. It's too good. It's too powerful for this game. There's no counter except to not even attempt to counter at all and hope you roll bad.

It really only matters in Kath Scarlet's case because she has the only card in the game with card text like she does and can pack an Ion. Off the top of my head, I can think of no other example that's remotely close to what we're talking about here.

Here's the thing though, and I touched on it in that wall of text last page, so I realize a lot of folks didn't read it- having the ability to Ion and Stress a ship from Range 3 with a PS7 pilot who can likely invoke that outcome far, far, far more often than not just by packing Marksmanship and a Mercenary Copilot is pretty scary! Think about the logistics of that roll for a second and how often you're not going to ionize and stress the other ship and I think you see why so many folks are wondering if they're reading this right.

Dbmeboy- I can't speak for Paradox, but that's not what I'm saying at all. At least, I don't think I am? It's pretty much the fact that I believe there's a ambiguous conflict as to whether Kath Scarlet's card text takes precedence over the Ion Weapon's card text. Now, from there, you subsequently get into your "time travel" business, but in my head it really just boils down to the same question of what the devs meant by "all results."

I know you think that "all" in that context means "uncancelled filled explosion symbols/ unfilled explosion symbols" because it was also my initial take on this subject and because you've repeated it a bunch of times in this thread. I get that. I really do, bro! I'm just saying if that's what they meant, I wish that's what they would have written on the card, because if the Ion Weapon card text does actually mean all , as in all results , as in everything everybody just rolled , I've put for the idea that it's possible to cancel all results without changing the final outcome of those results- i.e. whether or not the ship received a hit, because you do it after you reach that outcome . It's actually just like normal process, but instead of removing the dice from the common area or pretending they didn't exist or whatever, you'd just leave them there and continue on until you reach the conclusion of whether or not the ship was hit, then the Ion card text kicks in and wipes out everything from the common area. Or if that doesn't float your boat, say the Ion cancel cancels the result cancels. It's not time travel or predicting future rolls or whatever, it's just the card text taking precedence over the rules.

In any case, I'm done for the night. I still gotta write tomorrow's update and it's like 12:30am here!

Cid_MCDP said:

I may have had my recent disagreements with Hothie, but I don't think he's a big enough jerk to try and pull something like that.

Sitting on a potentially unclear rule, trying to hide it so that you can intentionally exploit an opponent's confusion in a game? That'd be pretty low.

Buhallin said:

The point was, he didn't do that. He started this thread instead.

@Cid_MCDP

There's a very simple reason that the ion cannon would ready "cancel all results" instead of "cancel all remaining results" and definitely not "cancel all remaining [hit] and [crit] results." The first two of those statements do the same thing, and one uses less text. The 3rd option there is actually different, though it doesn't change the end result much for now. However, in the future you could have a pilot ability that deals an extra damage for every 2 focus results or some such thing. So it's important that it cancels everything, not just the [hit] and [crit] remaining results.

Cancel all results = Cancel all of the results that exist at the time the text is used. The fact that there were other results in the past really doesn't change anything. Nobody thinks "Destroy all creatures" in MtG goes back and destroys creatures that had already been destroyed earlier in the turn or should be worded "Destroy all remaining creatures" instead.

Cancel all remaining results = Cancel all of the results that exist at the time the text is used. Looks the same to me… might as well use the shorter version of the text as the card is crowded enough already.

The problem is that the canceling dice step has to take place before comparing the dice. If not for that, I would agree with you db… this is just another one we'll have to wait on official clarification for.