Before we get into the Regionals season, I wanted to clarify somethihng, and see if people think I'm right about this interaction or not. I could be wrong about this, but I wanted to bring it up for discussion:

Kath Scarlet's card: "When attacking, the defender receives 1 stress token if he cancels at least 1 <critical hit> result"

Ion cannon card: "If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel ALL results"

Compare results, page 12, you can read for yourself.

Scenario 1: Kath uses Ion Cannon, rolls <hit>, <crit>, <crit>. Defender rolls 2 <evade> and 1 blank. I read the interaction to be as follows; the defender is cancelling one of the crit results with the evade result as per the Compare Results step on page 12. Therefore Kath's ability would trigger, and the defender would receive 1 stress token and 1 ion token. The other crit is used to determine that the ion attack hits, and then the Ion card cancels that crit.

Scenario 2: Kath uses Ion Cannon, rolls <hit, <hit>, <crit>. Defender rolls 2 <evade> and 1 blank. I read this interaction to be as follows; the defender is cancelling the 2 hits with his evade results. The critical hit is used to determine that the Ion attack hit, then the Ion Cannon card cancels the die result, thus cancelling the critical hit result. Since it was the Ion Cannon cancelling the crit and not the defender, I would read that Kath's ability does not trigger, therefore the defender would only receive an ion token.

Am I right in my reading of these interactions, or am I off base?

And I did look through 14 pages of rules threads on here, as well as the rules threads on AFM before asking this. I did not see it asked, although it may have been buried within another thread.

I completely agree with your interpretation.

This seems correct to me - you don't check to see if you are hit in the compare results process - you cancel dice one by one, and discover if you are hit after removing each canceled die. As long as you're saving those crits to be the last cancelled.

Ravncat said:

The question becomes HOW is it being cancelled? If it's by the defender (or more directly, his dice), then Kath's ability triggers. But In scenario 2, I read that the Ion Cannon card cancels the crit, not the defender, therefore Kath's ability would not trigger. It's an important distinction, I think. And thanks for your replies.

:nod: Ion canon process seems to me to be

1. Compare results -

2. Check to see "Is starship hit"

2.a. If yes, deal one damage card (or remove a shield) and an ion token - then cancel all results

2.b. if no, move along…

This leaves

A: During the compare results in step 1 above, the dice are being cancelled by the defender's dice (and thus defender). Cancelling crits here trigger Kath.

and

B: During the cancel all results in step 2, the dice are being cancelled by the ion cannon (and thus attacker). Cancelling crits here don't trigger Kath.

I suppose there could be an ambiguity in the fact that the Ion cannon card states "cancel all results" - which of the following does that mean?

I: "cancel all remaining results" or

or

II: cancel all results initially rolled.

In case I, the above A and B are true.

in case II, the above A is false. (because it never gets a chance to occur, and Kath cannot be triggered by the defenders die results on an Ion canon hit. (Interesting to note that this doesn't come into play if the defender evades the ion canon, and the attack does not hit. - we're back to normal cancellation of dice in compare results))

Maybe a question to submit to FFG. I suspect that given the wording of compare results on page 12, that since we cancel the dice one at a time during compare results (by physically removing them) in order to determine if there is a hit - that we have case I, and that cancel all results is intended to mean cancel all remaining results - but we all know how arguments about intent work.

Even in your 2nd case (the ion cannon retroactively cancels all of the results) that wouldn't change the fact that the defender would cancel results themselves before that. Because of the wonky time travel that would be required to make that happen though, I'm 99% positive that your first case (cancels remaining results) is the correct one.

Depends on what exactly you think, "Cancel ALL results" means.

I noticed this weirdness a couple of days before I posted the Ion Cannon article on TheMetalBikini.com , hence my somewhat cryptic deflection regarding Kath and the Ion Cannon. I emailed a couple of friends who play to see if my take on it was correct before I posted (I had the same idea as you, Hothie) someting as potentially crazy as Kath + Ion Cannon.

We exchanged a bunch of emails and reached the conclusion that it's ambiguous. You can interepret that as Hothie has above, in which case Kath's ability works frighteningly well with an Ion Cannon (especially with a Mercenary Copilot and Marksmanship) or you look at it as Ravncat said in his post- namely that the rules for Ion Weapons cancels all results before Kath's ability has a chance to take effect. This seeems really counterintuitive at first, but if you look at the fact that everything in step 6 of the Combat Phase essentially happens simultaneously, and Step 7 never really even happens with an Ion Weapon, it makes more sense.

I really don't think there's anything stopping anyone from strolling into a Regional and agruing a case for Hotie's interpretation though. While I don't think that's the way the rules were supposed to work, it's defeinitely ambiguous, and who knows, maybe that was the way it's supposed to work. There's really not enough evidence to debate successfully one way or the other, so if doing something like that floats your boat, by all means, I think the opportunity is there.

My feelings are somewhat in line with Cid's.

On the surface, I think Hothie's initial interpretation is correct.

• The defender clearly cancelled a crit result.

I also think that " Then cancel all dice results " may very well trump Kath's ability.

• The defender's dice rolls are also cancelled, so it was as if they were never rolled.

That's a clear contradiction, and I tend personally just lean toward the "Breaking the Rules" mandate of going with the rule that takes things away over the one that gives. I'd say this one is also too ambiguous for us mere mortals to rule on without an official decree.

The ion cannon cannot cancel all results before the defender cancels results because it doesn't cancel results until after you determine that it hits, and it only hits after evades (or other effects, like evade tokens) cancel results.

But wouldn't "Then cancel all dice results" cancel all previous dice results?

Hmmm… now that I'm looking at this again, I'm starting to think it would not trigger Kath's ability.

1. The dice merely determined whether the attack would result in a hit.
2. Once it is determined that the attack hits, cancel all of the dice results for the attacker and defender, applying a single damage and an ion token.

But I could see this argued both ways ad nauseum.

dbmeboy said:

From a procedural standpoint, you follow the steps like you're thinking, but from a game mechanics perspective, all that happens simultaneously just like rolling a blank becomes a hit via a Target Lock reroll or an eyeball becomes a hit via Focus. So even though it seems like time travel to go back and cancel all results from the Ion Weapons card at the very last, you really aren't- all that is happening at the same time from the perspective outside the actual Phase, but obviously you have to perform the steps within that Phase in some sort of order or it doesn't make any sense.

Again, just my opinion. That email chain I mentioned earlier went on for three days. We're convinced that there's no right answer on this as it stands currently. FFG will have to make a ruling.

paradox23 said:

That's the conclusion we ultimately arrived at, but as you noticed- it's ambiguous enough to go either way.

Really I think it'll just boil down to how well you can argue the point with your opponent, and possibly the tournament organzier.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to have this tactic "work" the first couple weeks of Regionals then get clarified before they conclude in June. It has the potential to start quite a few arguments in an otherwise very nailed-down and friendly game system.

I have sent this question in to FFG for clarification.

Regarding my interpretation, I'm going by the timing and the explanation of what it means to "Cancel a die".

The Ion Cannon card specifically states: "If this attack hits". How do we determine if the attack hits? We compare results, as outlined on page 12. Notice where it says "Each time a die result is cancelled, a player takes one die displaying the cancelled result and physically removes the die from the common area." It is in this step where I think Kath's ability would trigger. I believe this counts for "the defender receives 1 stress token if he cancels at least 1 result." The cancelled crit dice are removed from the playing area at this time, which is why I think the second part of the Ion card wouldn't apply to them.

After these dice have been removed, then the second part of the Ion Cannon card would kick in; "Then cancell ALL die results." This part of the card would apply to the attack dice remaining on the board. Here is where any crits would be cancelled by the Ion Cannon card, so the defender would not be cancelling these, so Kath's ability would not trigger here.

This is how I read it.

Although on the other side of the coin is the rest of that paragraph. "Players ignore all cancelled results during this attack." Does that mean Kath's crits are ignored as well?

hehe

We're getting really good at beta testing this game.

hothie said:

That was my debate as well, but the rules can also be interpreted in that simultaneous fashion where you aren't actually doing anything before anything. There's no cancel these results then cancel those results- it's just cancel results. You have to do it in a logical order (the one you describe), but again- outside of step 6, none of that order matters- only the result, & not the particular steps in which you arrived at the result.

Be interesting to see how this turns out!

I'm confused about where in the rules it looks like you should be doing things simultaneously. The rules pretty clearly outline the steps to take in order. You can't even determine if the shot hit or not until after the defender cancels attack dice results because a shot hits when there are uncanceled hit results, not when there are more hits than evades.

dbmeboy said:

Let me ask you this- completely outside of this context-

What does "Cancel all results" do?

It cancels all of the results that exist at the time the text is executed. It does not go back in time and cancel results that were already canceled earlier because they no longer exist to be canceled.

dbmeboy said:

Right, because the previously canceled dice were removed from the common area. The "Then cancel ALL dice results" only applies to the dice remaining after the previously canceled dice were removed. At least that's how I interpret it.

So why do they emphasize the all if it's only cancelling the remaining results?

I really don't think that the rules are ambiguous on this one. During the Compare Results step the defender cancels attack results with their evade results and/or evade tokens. During this process, Kath's text kicks in as soon as a crit is canceled. You then check for uncanceled hits/crits to see if the shot is a hit. If the shot did hit, the Ion Cannon's text kicks in and cancels all of the remaining results. The card doesn't use the word "remaining" because it isn't needed for anything and would just take card space without changing the function.

dbmeboy said:

That's cool. We're just kinda going around in circles anyway. It'll be nice when they rule on this, one way or the other.

To answer the quetion at the top of page 2 - I think what "cancel all results" does - is ensure that you get only 1 damage from the ion canon - instead of saying cancel all but one remaining hit, or some other wording that could be more interperative, the idea that you deal one damage then cancel all results - emphasizes that the ion canon does 1 damage on a hit. This happens after modification - so it seems that there's not any other reason to emphasize "all".

I think Hothie's point of the "players Ignore all cancelled results seems pretty focused on the result of the cancelled die - not on ignoring the resultant fact that the die was cancelled - as it's in the cancelling dice section. It seems to be part of the definition of what a cancelled die is, and should not impact Kath at all - if it did, then Kath would never get the ability to trigger. - does that seem right?

(Btw, I really enjoy reading these threads because it helps me get a deeper understanding of game design, which is important for some of my own projects. I'm glad at how civil these discussions have been (compared to some other forums out there), Thanks to everyone for participating civilly in these discussions!)

Ravncat said:

Well, again, like I said waaaay back in my first post, it all really boils down to whether you think that "cancel all results" means cancel all results or cancel all remaining results. Recall that I said I was actually debating on the Hothie and dbmeboy side of the fence when I was having the debate with my friend over email. He's a lawyer, and I mean an actual lawyer, not a rules lawyer, so obviously he's better at debate than I am- I just work on fire alarm and security systems. Long story short though, that's essentially what his argument centered around- the fact that all means, well, you know, all . Not some , not r emaining , all . Like I said before, his line of thinking was if they meant something else, they would have said something else and they certainly wouldn't have bolded it- there are other ways to phrase the Ion Weapons card/ SWS cards so that you only do 1 (face-down) Damage. I conceded the point and abandoned the idea until I happened across this thread today, posted his stance from what I could remember without wading too deeply into my poorly organized GMail, and tried to continue to represent his point through the subsequent responses.

As for does it seem right, well, her ability triggers quite normally with anything but an Ion Weapon, which I'm now of the opinion was the actual intent after being on the receving end of the "all means all" argument from my pal. Regardless of the side of the fence I happen to be on, I will say, it's always seemed strange that firing a weapon that can never by its nature generate a critical hit, and by that I mean a face-up Damage card, can trigger Kath Scarlet's ability.

Say for a moment though that my original stance, and subsequently Hothie and dbmeboy's, on this was correct. Have you really looked at what this kind of setup means in-game?

Kath Scarlet shoots at one of your ships with an Ion Cannon. Let's say she declared Marksmanship for her Action. Let's also say she has a Mercenary Copilot crew member, because well, that's exactly how I intended to set her up, and I'm sure it's what Hothie is thinking too. She rolls the three dice the Ion Cannon affords her and can reach out at any of your ships within Range 3, which of course doesn't generate you an extra Defense die as the Ion Cannon is a Secondary Weapon System.

What's the odds of your ship not ending up ioninzed and stressed?

Blanks on her Attack dice are the only thing that's going to stop that result (which on an Attack die, there are only two), or ironically, a bad defense roll from the targeted ship. It invokes a weird strategic response similar to not spending an Evade or Focus to negate a single hit from a YT-1300 with Gunner or Gunner Luke because you don't want to trigger a wholesale re-roll, but it's different and worse in this instance because in this case, you're purposely hoping to roll bad to get a more positive outcome where with the Gunner Luke thing, you're hoping to roll well, but if you roll bad, you might not want to modify the result from bad to average.

Dig it for a second- let's say Kath scores a hit and two crits on your ship (note that unless I've got something seriously wrong, this result is actually the most likely result possible here) and it's time for you to make your defense roll. You're in an X-Wing, so you roll two Defense dice. Say you roll an Evade and an eyeball. If you spend your Focus token, you end up Ionized and Stressed. If you don't, you only end up Ionized. Even worse, say you actually beat the odds and roll two Evade results- now you're defeinitely ionized and Stressed now. Does that seem right? On a Range 3 weapon stuck to a big ship with 4 shields and 6 hull stock? Wielded by a Pilot Skill 7 pilot who can take Elite Pilot Skills? Everyone keeps talking about the Han Shoots First list- I gotta tell you, if you gave me a choice, I'd much rather go up against that list than Kath Scarlet decked out like this (48 points, by the way) with 4 TIEs flying alongside her. I may not have much of a chance against Han, but it beats watching my most dangerous starfighter get driven off the board.

Thinking about all this for the first time in a couple of weeks today, I don't know. I played 40k for years, man. There were tons of ambiguous and unintuitive rules that never got FAQed at all, and often, the ones that did were interpreted in such a strange way that while the community seemed to think it would either get errated into A or B, it somehow ended up C. Also, having been on both sides of this debate now, I can honestly see both sides of the coin, so no ruling on this would surprise me at this point- they both have validity, at least in my opinion. Dbmeboy disagrees, but then he didn't debate my boy Sean on the topic like I did either- the dude is very persuasive.

All I can say is I'm still pretty much where I've been at this whole time- I think it probably doesn't work because it's too powerful, but there's certainly enough ambiguity in the wording and interpretation that it could. I just hope it gets clarified before I play in the Regionals I'm planning on attending- I'd much rather roll dice than argue with strangers.

I guess I'm glad I brought it up then. I'll post as soon as I get a response from FFG, but I'm not sure if that will happen before Saturday or not. And thank you all for being an awesome community.

And Cid, I think you're missing the "Then" part, and that's why I brought up the timing earlier. As I read it, the dice get canceled and removed from the board (where Kath's ability triggers.) THEN cancel all dice results says to me that after removing dice, you now look at what is remaining and cancel that. As Ravn said, it has to do with the only doing one damage and the defender not suffering any critical hit or multiple hit damage remaining after canceling and removing dice while determining if the attack hit.

But, I'll post the official response when I get it, which hopefully will be within the next week. Ya know what I really wish? I wish the moderators would actually come onto the forums like most every other message board community out there. Then these issues would be solved quicker and explained better than we can do. It would be nice to have an FFG presence on the FFG forums. I guess it speaks volumes that this community does so well without them.