Ok, the horde in question isn't strictly norse, but I like rhymes ok?

Anyway, first a quick rules recap:

-When attacking a horde, Space Marines inflict a number of extra hits for every 2 DoS.

-When using a psychic power against a horde it may hit a number of times up to the psy rating.

-When attacking with a force sword, a psyker may channel his energy into it to deal extra damage, treated as a psychic power.

So, with all that in mind, my Night Lords Sorceror, Natharus, attacks a norse horde with his force sword (tee hee), and scores enough degrees of success to deal a few hits. He then channels his sorcerous abilities into the sword (psy rating 3), winning the opposed will test.

Does he inflict the three extra hits from his psy rating? Discuss.

Sorry, the psychic power hits a number of times equal to the degrees of success, not the psy rating. My bad.

Thaddux said:

Incorrect. Check errata. It's not a SM special power. It's for everyone.

Thaddux said:

The channeling of killing will with the successful attack would be 1 hit only. It's energy based and single target direct damage (compare it with a Psychic Bolt which would do 1 hit when energy based).

So in total you'd do 1 hit per 2 DoS on the force sword attack and, assuming the killing will opposed test was won (because it always does atleast 1 damage unless psychic wards), 1 magnitude damage from the killing will.

I'd be inclined to allow a Force weapon to do additional Damage to the Horde equal to the DoS on the (Free Action) Focus Power Test. It seems a fair inclination, considering Force Weapons do not have the Power Field Quality. It could be described as nearby members of the Horde witnessing one of their number being drained to a husk by a fell weapon and deciding flight is wiser than the fight.

• Psyker/Sorcerer calculates the number of hits cause by his/her attack
• Psyker/Sorcerer rolls Damage for any hits
• If at least one hit causes Damage (defeats TB and AP) then he/she may make a (Free Action) Opposed Focus Power Test
• For each DoS achieved on the Opposed Focus Power Test (and if the PC wins the Opposed Test) the Psyker/Sorcerer does an additional 1 point of Damage to the Horde's Magnitude

By definition, this Opposed Focus Power Test would have a subtype of Attack/Concentration (the PC is clearly making an attack and concentrating on channeling his/her killing will), meaning the PC may either use a Psychic Power on the Horde or attack with his/her Force Weapon and channel killing will, but not both in his/her Turn. Regardless of the Action Subtypes listed for some Psychic Powers, such as Mantle of Lies or Delude, all Psychic Powers used against Hordes with intent to reduce Magnitude should be considered attacks, meaning this is "technically" a case (the only case?) of being able to make two Actions with the Attack Subtype in a single Turn.

Actually, it would seem using a Force Weapon in this manner might be (marginally) better than using a Psychic Power. And, as both the Weapon Skill and the Opposed Focus Power rolls are Tests, there's equal chances for high and low results for Damage to the Horde, possibly lower and certainly not much higher than that caused in one Turn by a frothing Khorne Berserker wielding a Power Axe.

Phychic Hordes; say a cabal of rival Incantors or Wyrds; would be Psy-resistant, being as capable of choosing the power level of their resistance, whether it be Fettered, Unfettered, or Push, thus gaining a bonus to their Opposed Willpower Test against a Force Weapon's killing will ability, making for a very interesting Horde foe.

@BrotharTearer

I was not aware that all Heretics scored extra hits on hordes. My fellow players will be delighted.

@Alekzanter

A very clear and concise reasoning, thank you. You summed up what I was trying to say much better than I did. I'm inclined to imagine it looking much like the opening scene of The Fellowship of the Ring, with Sauron smashing apart formations of soldiers, sending each flying with a crash of energy.

Channeling Killing Will has no subtypes. If it had Attack as a subtype, you'd not be able to use it as a Free Action after an attack with the force weapon. If it had concentrate then it'd say so, as you can already do a Concentrate psychic power and attack + killing will with a force weapon in the same turn.

The potential issue with allowing Killing Will to score more than 1 hit on hordes (i.e. 1 hit per DoS on the opposed test thing that was suggested) is that you then could potentially rack up quite the mass of hits. Two Weapon Wielder, two force swords, Lightning Attack, 60 WS, Warptime @ PR6 (even without warptime it'd still be pretty silly). Now imagine that you channel killing will with every hit from lightning attack (each of which are 1 hit on the horde, in addition to the 1 hit per 2 DoS on the WS test - times two, because you're dual wielding). Let's say average 4 lightning attack hits means 8x killing will, each of which could be average 3 DoS. That's 24 hits if going with 1 hit per DoS. Only from killing will. Yeah. Potentially silly stuff.

Well, if your Psyker has all of that stuff then you have worse problems than the fact that he can kill a horde in one turn. There are also quite a few psychic powers that can let him do huge damage to hordes without spending thousands of XP.

That, and the fact that Free Actions aren't a dime a dozen. Eight Free Actions in a Turn? No way.

DJSunhammer said:

Actually, there aren't. A Heavy Flamer or a decent melee combatant do more than the majority (if not all) of psychic powers.

Alekzanter said:

So eight swings with the force swords is alright but a free action at the end of every sword hit is not? Not sure how that makes sense.

BrotharTearer said:

WS 60, PR 6, Lightning Attack, Two-Weapon Wielder, and dual-wielding Force weapons = 13 potential hits, maximum. Warp Time adds PR to WS as an Unnatural Characteristic Bonus. Only one Lightning Attack may be made, the secondary weapon may strike once. Warp Time descibes the Psyker's/Sorcerer's movements as being of " terrifying speed ", so yes, 8 hits (potential Damage to Horde Magnitude) in one Turn is fine.

Now…

DoS - Degrees of Success
DoF = Degree of Failure
DoD = Degrees of Difference

Page 234, Free Actions, first sentence: " A Free Action takes only a moment and requires no real effort by the character. " Further: " …and there is no formal limit to the number of Free Actions one character can take. The GM should use common sense to set resonable limits… Examples of Free Actions include dropping a weapon or speaking a few words. " Reasonable limits. Page 130, Quick Draw (Talent), allows a character to " …draw and Ready a weapon as a Free Action… " A weapon. Singular.

Additionally, as the act of channeling psychic force and killing will is represented as the Psyker/Sorcerer making a Focus Power Test using Opposed Willpower, I would rule that at least some effort is required. To validate this position:

There is no indication in the rules for weapons with the Force Quality (pg 149) regarding the modualtion (Fettered, Unfettered, Push) of the channeling of psychic force and killing will, other than the rules detailing the amount of Damage caused by weapons with the Force Quality: " For every point of Psy Rating the wielder has the weapon's Damage and Penetration increase by +1. " This implies the unmodified PR of the wielder, which translates as Unfettered. The Psyker/Sorcerer has no choice in the matter; this Opposed Focus Power Test is Unfettered. Further to this, pg 208, FOCUS POWER TEST , details the rules as follows: " Many powers also indicate an Opposed Test… Note that even if the psyker gathers fewer DoS than his opponent and does not activate the power, he still can generate a disturbance in the warp (Phychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp) if using the power at Unfettered or Push level. "

A reasonable interpretation would be to consider the act of channeling psychic force and killing will as, at the very least, having an Action Subtype of Concentration. As a GM, I would also rule it has the Action Subtype of Attack, my reasoning being simple and as follows: In the event it becomes possible that any other Psychic Power that would cause Damage to a Horde's Magnitude could be activated by a Psyker/Sorcerer who is also intent on channeling killing will in the same Turn, ascribing the Action Subtypes of Attack and Concentration will prevent such an unreasonable use of Actions.

Allowing for more than one Free Action when channeling killing will means each Free Action Opposed Focus Power Test could then generate Phenomena/Perils, and that would be a lot of unchecked warp energy for " no real effort ".

I will add a fifth bullet point to the order from my previous post, and clarify as follows:

• Psyker/Sorcerer calculates the number of hits caused by his/her attack
• Psyker/Sorcerer rolls Damage for any hits
• If at least one hit from a weapon with the Force Quality causes Damage (defeats AP and TB) then he/she may channel psychic force and killing will by making a single (Free Action) Focus Power Test using Opposed Willpower
• For each DoS achieved on the (Free Action) Focus Power Test (clarified as the Psyker/Sorcerer succeeding on the Test and achieving more DoS than his opponent) the Psyker/Sorcerer may increase the Damage caused to Horde Magnitude by +1
• Regardless of the number of hits from weapons possessing the Force Quality that are wielded by a Psyker/Sorcerer, he/she may only ever make a single (Free Action) Focus Power Test using Opposed Willpower in his/her Turn

A Horde of Imperial Guardsmen, WP 25, fails their Opposed Willpower Test by 3 DoF, while the Psyker/Sorcerer achieves 4 DoS. The total DoD is 7, so the Horde takes an additional 7 points of Damage to its Magnitude. Adding this to 8, we have a total of 15 points of Damage to the Horde Magnitude. The amount of extra Damage caused to a Horde's Magnitude with killing will (if any) is completely random, calculated from DoS, DoF, and DoD. It could very well be zero.

Each Psychic Power beyond the first that is Sustained increases the chances of Perils by +10. A Heavy Flamer can do 8+d5 hits to a Horde. Based on these factors alone, as a full-time GM I consider all of the above to be within reasonable limits.

Alekzanter said:

There's more effort involved in swinging a sword than the split moment of contact that amounts to the time you channel your killing will through your weapon. You don't stand there holding the blade to your opponent's chest while channeling killing will. It's done as a free action during contact of the swing, i.e. much much much quicker than any single word spoken, i.e. free actions that amount to unsubstantial time, i.e. moot time. 8 Free Actions of channeling killing will I argue goes faster than one of the eight swings of the sword or that "DIE!" exclaimation that might follow your lightning attack.

Alekzanter said:

Yes there is. Channeling killing will is a Focus Power Test. For every Focus Power Test you determine the Strength, i.e. Fettered/Unfettered/Push. Easy enough.

Alekzanter said:

There's no action subtypes listed for it, so it has none. If you as a GM wants to give it subtypes, then that's your perogative, but note that you can only do 1 Attack or Concentration action per turn. If you gave it the Attack subtype you'd not be able to attack with your force weapon (all attack actions have Attack as a subtype) and channel killing will in the same turn. That kinda defeats the purpose, does it not? Ergo, it doesn't have Attack as a subtype. If it had you'd not be able to use it.

As for Concentration, sure, go ahead. But that'd limit the use of channel killing will to one single use per turn. Out of a hypothetical 50 attacks with your force sword you'd only be able to channel killing will once. Doesn't make much sense does it? You'd also not be able to use most psychic powers as the other Half Action during the same turn either.

But I insist, Concentration indicates some kind of timely concentration. Channeling killing will is more automatic in that it's force of will. You will the power to flow through the weapon as you hit, you don't stand there and concentrate as it happens. It's less than the blink of an eye.

Alekzanter said:

You don't do DoD in BC. It's 4 DoS no matter how many DoF the opposer rolls.

Alekzanter said:

Not sure why you're comparing an area of effect horde killer with a single target psychic power. AOE should always be more effective with a single use vs. hordes.

You say potato…

Alekzanter said:

?

BrotharTearer said:

Lightning Attack can be used to strike multiple targets, yo. Which means killing will (by your assessment and interpretation of the number of reasonably allowable Free Actions any single character can make in a single Turn) is not a "single target psychic power." Meaning it is possible, by your interpretations, to have a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer dual-wield Force Weapons and, through the use of Lightning Attack, get one hit on each of the six Daemon Princes attacking him and possibly nuke each one with killing will…all within 6 seconds. Just take a moment and think about it.

No. Just no.

BrotharTearer said:

Humor me, won't you? Please cite page numbers and reference headings of the sources where these 50 hypothetical attacks might be metagamed from?

IF, and I say IF a PC had a WSB of 9 and was dual wielding anything I see two attacks and ten hits, tops, against non-horde foes. For sake of argument, let's just say ten is correct, and you not only think it's reasonable but also think it's a correct interpretation of rules that the possibility of this same PC (now wielding Force Weapons) can channel killing will into all ten hits, which may be directed to any number (up to ten) of targets within striking range, and even if this means Charmandering ten Chaos Warlords in Terminator armour…you're okay with that?

Energizing a force sword counts as your manifest for the turn, and psykers are only allowed one manifest per turn.

Given the way things work in deathwatch, I would treat a force sword as being no greater than a power field weapon. The ability to turn one target to ash that you sword strikes in a given turn out of many that you potentially hit with a lightning attack doesn't really add up to much in the scheme of things. It's not like the soul crush effect has a blast radius or anything.

And in BC, only Legionnaires get the extra hits, in exchange for being unable to avoid being stabbed. Normal heretics don't get the extra damage because they aren't viewed as being nearly as big a threat, but they're allowed to make evasions against hordes.

Adversius Bael said:

Black Crusade changed the psychic power rules. Now you can manifest as many times per turn as you want as long as you don't make more than one action each of the attack and concentration subtypes. Example: Manifest Flame + Fire Bolt.

The issue with channelling power into the force weapon to do extra damage, is that it is treated like a psychic power, but no subtypes are specified.

And according to the errata, which was pointed out to me at the start of this thread, all heretics gain extra hits vs hordes. Human heretics being allowed to evade hordes is an optional rule that I believe was implemented in the Tome of Blood.

Alekzanter said:

"50 hypothetical attacks" was obviously hyperbole to demonstrate the absurdity in being able to attack a shitload of times with your sword but only channel killing will once. The difference in time used for the actions is significant (you used time as an argument, that the free action to channel would take too long after every hit).

But sure, I'll humor you. And before I begin: no I'm not. It's blatantly too powerful. But it's allowed within the rules. The GM is advised to limit game imbalancing things somehow without getting the player annoyed because he invested so much into being able to do such a thing (hitting stuff with a nerf bat should optimally be done before play begins, not while it's in play).

It's reasonable to say one focusing so much on lightning attack will be able to reach 70 fairly easily with investment, but because I'm doing this with a human let's put it a little lower than a CSM, so let's say 60 WS base. We need 6 PR minimum, and that's easy as a Tzeentchian. Of course, we're dual-wielding force swords and we've got Lightning Attack. Child of the Warp for +1 PR when pushing, as well as Boon of Tzeentch (let's say we get on average 6 DoS when using this one).

The magic: pushed Warptime that's Booned gives us 18 Unnatural WS and pushed (but dangerous) Booned Protean Form gives us 36 Unnatural WS (you won't want to have this on for too long). That's +54 Unnatural WS, for a total of 60 WSB, allowing for a maximum of 60 hits per lightning attack. The Unnatural WS grants us 54/2= +27 DoS on a successful WS test. Assuming we pass the two WS tests to lightning attack with our two weapons with 3 DoS, that means we hit 30 times per force sword.

That's over the 50 hits I used as hyperbole, if we add both weapons. Don't forget that Tzeentchians can add +1d5 DoS to a test with an Infamy Point, and not to mention that there's other ways to optimize it even further that I've probably not bothered to mention or factor in.

It's not a hypothetical walk in the park, as Boon of Tzeentch means you're taking damage you need to soak/heal, but a healthy usage of Unnatural Healing/Regeneration/Infamy points to recover wounds should probably help with that if you actually want to survive the ordeal.

EDIT: Nevermind, I completely misread that. Ignore this post

BrotharTearer said:

So that doesn't work. See cumulative effects on pg. 209: "Modifiers, Characteristic increases, and other benefits generated by psychic powers do not stack -- only the highest applies". Not to mention if you could you also would be loosing psy rating for sustaining multiple psychic powers at the same time. You'd still be getting a pretty silly number of attacks in, but not as much as you have portayed as possible.

In regards to using killing will on each on of those attacks, I find the concept fairly rediculous; If on no grounds other than it would completely imbalance the game to allow such abuse. While the tzeenchian BA may have the time of his life mass murdering 30 greyknights on the spot, I'm not sure the remaining players in the party would enjoy twiddling their thumbs while the sorcerer killed everyone in each combat. In the spirit of the game, I would limit the number of uses of killing will to at most a players psy rating, but likely half a players psy rating rounded down to a minimum of 1.

Perhaps in the case of something like protean form, I would suggest as a rationale for the limit of free actions, that you are not in anyway improving the characters mental ability to keep up with his physical self. He may be able to swing blazingly fast, but perhaps all of his mental concentration is being spent on maintaining his psychic power and swinging his sword. Thus leaving only so much effort to be placed in reaching out with whatever remains of his psychic powers to burn some fool on the end of his sword. That is just one potential scenario though…

In the end, I can't find anything that strictly refutes the ability to prevent killing will on all 18+ blows from each weapon. But in my opinion, to keep play balanced, I would severely limit the use of killing will within a single round.