I´m a bit confused with the timing of theon greyjoy.

it´s ability says at the beggining of the dominance fase, discard a card from the top of the opponents deck and if it´s a char, put it into play.

So, when is that "at the beggining of the phase" exactly? Before the shadows timefrmae? after that but before the dominance is calced? in the first action window?

Thanks in advance

ktom said it happens after Shadows but before counting Dominance. Someone else can explain it in more detail if they want to…

Skowza said:

Right. The most recent clarification on timing structure shows that each phase breaks down to:

1. Shadows

2. Any "beginning of phase" actions/passives/etc.

3. Whatever else happens in the particular phase you're in.

(yes I know that's a very simplistic breakdown, but I don't want to bore people with unnecessary details)

In your example with Theon, his passive text (providing he is in your dead pile) triggers after shadows actions are allowed, but before dominance is counted. So, if the card discarded from your opponent's deck(s) is a (I believe it has to be unique to trigger his put into play mechanic) character, then he will be in play and counting towards your dominance total for that round.

Theon's response is indeed "After a unique character is discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, put Theon Greyjoy into play from your dead pile."

stormwolf27 said:

ktom said:

I know that, but it wasn't introduced to the actual flow chart till the most recent FAQ

Although, if you do it the way it appears on the flow chart, you'll end up doing it wrong. The flow chart would need to be completely redesigned to represent Shadows correctly.

stormwolf27 said:

And IMO they shouldn't have incorporated it in the flow charts the way they did, because they are misleading. The new flow charts make it look like bringing cards out of shadows is a normal framework event, but that's just not true. For example, the first response opportunity to a card coming out of shadows is with the player to the left of the player bringing out the card (just like it would be if bringing a card out of shadows was a player action). If bringing a card out of shadows were a framework event, the first response opportunity would be with the First Player.

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

I assume that is not the case and it´s more an action than a framework event right? At least that´s what I thought…

Thanks for the explanation everyone. Really apreciated

Yes. The shadows rules tell you to treat each card that comes out of shadows as a separate action (complete with its own passive and response opportunity) after the phase begins, but before passives and responses to the phase beginning. So that's what you do, even those instructions are really hard to show on the general flow charts.

Sorry just to help clear things up, is Theon's response always there or is that also part of the while he is in the dead pile?

Korvac-V said:

But since the Response puts him into play from your dead pile, the Response is useless to you unless he is in the dead pile anyway.

So that would mean if using say bloodthirsty crew (win unoppossed challenge discard two cards from losing players deck) and they then discard a unique character then Theon could come back into play during the challenge phase?

Korvac-V said:

As long as he's in the dead pile, yes. It doesn't specify that the card has to be discarded during dominance, or specifically from Theon's ability. Just specifies that it be discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, and that it be a unique character.

We've been playing that counting dominance is the first action in that phase - I was under the impression that you could not do anything else prior to counting dominance strenght

The above comments suggest we have been playing incorrectly and that i.e. shadow actions occur before counting dominance, likewise Theon's response

BTW: Theon has a passive ability to get oponents to discard the top card of their deck at the beginning of domminance - but it is a Response to actually return Theon into play if an unique character is discarded …. don't whether that is relevent

HastAttack said:

HastAttack said:

Bringing cards out of shadows comes first, then "at the beginning of the phase" effects (like Theon or Jaime) and then you count dominance. Only then come player actions. The rule you had in mind is "no player actions before counting dominance" (there are none before standing cards or returning unspent gold either).