Dairian said:
as far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a level 1 jedi knight.
And you weren't a Jedi Knight until after 7th Level in D20. Prior to that you were a Padawan. The problem was in the setup. GMs wanted everyone to be the same level, so this led to the oddity of people playing level 1 jedis and being a lot older than 3 or 4 years of age when doing the Clone Wars or Old Republic time periods.
Genghis12 said:
Right -- and there are books coming for those people.
But, if they're going to support EotE. And they're going to support other eras of play beyond just OT era. Well, then…
Then I think it would be an even weirder arrangement if they had a sourcebook mixing different core books. I think they run the risk of alienating people if they force everyone to purchase all core books simply to take full advantage of a supplement. That's the problem with doing the old WEG/WotC era sourcebooks.
I think a more logical EotE-branded product is to actually have an EotE-branded product. And there's definitely room in any era for EotE elements.
But if you do split them out, you run into the problem of folks needing to possibly buy multiple supplements for the same era, one to correspond with each given era of play.
I'm not saying that FFG can't or shouldn't due EotE-only supplments, but I think they'd be better suited to keeping those supplments within the Dark Times or Rebellion Eras, maybe even very early New Republic Era (prior to Luke forming his Jedi Praxuem on Yavin 4 at least), to account for the fact that there's no rules for major military organizations (Age of Rebellion) or Force-users (Force & Destiny). That gives you about a 30 year time frame in which to base your supplements, particularly if you're looking at a single region of space (which could be sold as both supplement and adventure, giving both players and GMs something for their money).
They're probably already going to catch flak for having core rules material (dice mechanics, skills, and talents at the very least) reprinted in each of those other two core books. So it's probably in their best interset to hold off on doing supplements for other eras once the ground rules for military campaigns and Force-centric campaigns have been laid out. You may not give a flying Squib's hindquarters about not having any material for Force-users or military actions in a supplement based upon the Clone Wars or KOTOR/SW:TOR eras, but I'd wager there's a lot more folks that would pass up the book because it lacks that material.
If it means that folks have to wait a couple years for a KOTOR/SW:TOR sourcebook or a Legacy Era sourcebook, both of which feature large military organizations that PCs can be a part of as well as Force-users of various types, then they may simply have to wait a couple years. It's not like FFG isn't already asking folks to wait for military/mass-combat rules or full-fledged Force rules.
I'm honestly thinking that Fiddleback's idea in the "Adventure Packs" thread about having supplements that are roughly one-half sourcebook and one-half adventure(s) is the right track for FFG to take, particularly if the sourcebook portion deals less with eras outside of Dark Times/Rebellion/Early New Republic and more with various regions of space during that time frame.
I agree. I also think that the material produced already (Beginner's Set and Long Arm of the Hutt) can easily be adapted to the Old Republic or New Republic era. The Hutts were a major element in just about every era of the setting. There are all sorts of adventures that a group of players can get involved in to keep them busy.
Also, this is kind of a stretch, but it's interesting that A New Hope 's focus is in the fringe element (Edge of the Empire), The Empire Strikes Back is the military (Age of Rebellion), and Return of the Jedi is the force (Destiny and the Force). It's a gradual build up.
It has also been stated that there will be force related content in EoTE, just not enough to go full on Battlefield Yoda. Until Luke makes his academy on Yavin, there's just a bunch of force sensative fugitives running around trying to hide what they are. That in itself should provide for some interesting and Jedi ethical code breaking situations.
I understand the frustration though, so hopefully the new core book has something that can hold us over until 2015.
As others have said already. I think most of the products are going to be very force light. With their obscure abhorrence for Jedi in their first product, I think they will be rather limited on what they can put out. For the most part, I think the first year and a half of this game release is going to be Firefly with a Star Wars logo. That ultimately limits them on what kind of era books and source books will be applicable.
As great as the original movies where, in my opinion, the setting was rather limiting compared to the EU and the Old Republic. This makes new releases for FFG’s much harder. I’m sure they will have to give a lot of lip service to the Force and Jedi while focusing on the scum and villainy for game mechanics. It kind of makes me shiver a bit. Just my opinion though.
Protege said:
As others have said already. I think most of the products are going to be very force light. With their obscure abhorrence for Jedi in their first product, I think they will be rather limited on what they can put out. For the most part, I think the first year and a half of this game release is going to be Firefly with a Star Wars logo. That ultimately limits them on what kind of era books and source books will be applicable.
As great as the original movies where, in my opinion, the setting was rather limiting compared to the EU and the Old Republic. This makes new releases for FFG’s much harder. I’m sure they will have to give a lot of lip service to the Force and Jedi while focusing on the scum and villainy for game mechanics. It kind of makes me shiver a bit. Just my opinion though.
Not having jedi in EotE does not constitute 'abhorrence'. It just constitutes not having Jedi.
Seeing as Firefly was Star Wars minus Jedi, I dont see what the problem is. However, when you consider the fact that the fringe has been an element in all EU eras, I dont see how that is the slightest bit limiting. The only thing it means is, no Jedi. That is it.
FFG has said there will be a whole book devoted to force stuff. I personally would much rather have the two years of playtesting EotE before they add in Jedi, so that they make at least a somewhat balanced game. WEG did not have a very good force system, WOTC tried 3 times and only got it partly right.
Quitre frankly, the more I think about it, I think that the choice of how FFG is doing the books is very deliberate. The Rebellion Era is very well defined in unalterable canon. Putting the core books out in the Rebellion Era is safe, especially with 5 new movies coming out shortly after the third core book. New movies that are considered far more Star Wars canon than anything in the EU, and that going off of the prequels, could change or ignore vast elements of the EU. How many novels and comics make no sense now?
Edge of the Empire is the base of the system. It is the 'A New Hope' for the RPG. It is the setup and beginning, and has an immense space it can fill before Jedi are even mentioned once.
Sorry, didn't really intend to pipe in on this thread, but someone did mention my name and I'll construe that as an invitation to comment. (Without having read the rest of the thread..)
I think people tend to, in the rush to pick and demand a favorite era or trope or character style, forget where this all started. One movie. With no real hope of a sequel or any sort of way to predict how it was going to do before hand. There were no Jedi beyond Ben. No Sith beyond Vader. No Naboo. No Hoth. No Coruscant. No Old Republic. No Ancient Jed'aii. No NJO. No AT-ATs. No Second Death Stars.
We had one movie and a ton of imagination to try to play our games with. There weren't any rules to go by. We just had to make it up as we went along. Did my 5 childhood friends and I want to all play Jedi? Then we were all Ben Kenobi. Different lightsaber styles? No such thing. No such thing as different lightsabers even beyond what we saw on screen.
The point is, everything you want is based entirely off that first movie. All the books and subsequent films and TV shows and games and everything else came from one, fortunately rich, foundation.
Sure, you want Jedi. Most folks do. Nothing wrong with that. Understand though that we are following a pattern. In Ep. IV, we, the audience, didn't start as Obi-Wan with years of experience. We were Luke. Untrained, unskilled and with limited understanding of that '"larger world". It took time for us to grow into what became, in later films, a Jedi.
That's where we are at present; building that initial foundation. Edge of the Empire is what everything else you want in this game will be built from. It is the foundation from which will spring Jedi. And Death Stars. And Admiral Thrawn. And Darths Revan and Plagueis and Bane and Maul. It is where we put in the beginning pieces from which a solid system that can handle 'Yoda' at the same time that it handles the Youngling can be built. Like the movies, we are on a journey that starts here, on this out of the way planet and ends who knows where, but with the hope that a galaxy can be saved and that the people in it will be better for it. And that the system of rules we play under will allow us to do what we want with it without becoming broken or even so badly bent that it just doesn't work anymore.
In a way, we are dealing with multiple storys in this game. You adventure story, of course. The background story of the movies. The story of your character's journey through these times that we all think we know so well. And, in a very real sense, the story of this game itself.
Be patient. Let it build it's foundation and get it right. In the meantime, play how you want to play. It's your game and your story. When the time comes, though, be prepared to be amazed by how well things work when we get to the 'end' and all the things you want are there to be used.
We start with Edge of the Empire, Ep. IV, The Outer Rim, No Jedi, Rebellion Era, Minimal Force use, because that is where and how it all started. Frankly, I'm kind of okay with that.
Fiddleback said:
Sorry, didn't really intend to pipe in on this thread, but someone did mention my name and I'll construe that as an invitation to comment. (Without having read the rest of the thread..)
I think people tend to, in the rush to pick and demand a favorite era or trope or character style, forget where this all started. One movie. With no real hope of a sequel or any sort of way to predict how it was going to do before hand. There were no Jedi beyond Ben. No Sith beyond Vader. No Naboo. No Hoth. No Coruscant. No Old Republic. No Ancient Jed'aii. No NJO. No AT-ATs. No Second Death Stars.
We had one movie and a ton of imagination to try to play our games with. There weren't any rules to go by. We just had to make it up as we went along. Did my 5 childhood friends and I want to all play Jedi? Then we were all Ben Kenobi. Different lightsaber styles? No such thing. No such thing as different lightsabers even beyond what we saw on screen.
The point is, everything you want is based entirely off that first movie. All the books and subsequent films and TV shows and games and everything else came from one, fortunately rich, foundation.
Sure, you want Jedi. Most folks do. Nothing wrong with that. Understand though that we are following a pattern. In Ep. IV, we, the audience, didn't start as Obi-Wan with years of experience. We were Luke. Untrained, unskilled and with limited understanding of that '"larger world". It took time for us to grow into what became, in later films, a Jedi.
That's where we are at present; building that initial foundation. Edge of the Empire is what everything else you want in this game will be built from. It is the foundation from which will spring Jedi. And Death Stars. And Admiral Thrawn. And Darths Revan and Plagueis and Bane and Maul. It is where we put in the beginning pieces from which a solid system that can handle 'Yoda' at the same time that it handles the Youngling can be built. Like the movies, we are on a journey that starts here, on this out of the way planet and ends who knows where, but with the hope that a galaxy can be saved and that the people in it will be better for it. And that the system of rules we play under will allow us to do what we want with it without becoming broken or even so badly bent that it just doesn't work anymore.
In a way, we are dealing with multiple storys in this game. You adventure story, of course. The background story of the movies. The story of your character's journey through these times that we all think we know so well. And, in a very real sense, the story of this game itself.
Be patient. Let it build it's foundation and get it right. In the meantime, play how you want to play. It's your game and your story. When the time comes, though, be prepared to be amazed by how well things work when we get to the 'end' and all the things you want are there to be used.
We start with Edge of the Empire, Ep. IV, The Outer Rim, No Jedi, Rebellion Era, Minimal Force use, because that is where and how it all started. Frankly, I'm kind of okay with that.
+1
Well said.
If people want to comment on jedi or the lack thereof, put it into this thread that we already have (and a couple more in the Beta forum). Lets save this for more general stuff and not derail it.
So what are the type supplements that would compliment EotE? Nothing too era specific. Equipment and ships for one. And it would be easy enough to fill a book with such things from across different eras making it useful to a broader audience. An atlas type book focusing on the outer rim, its peoples and planets and the types of adventures that could done would probably be welcome. Maybe even a campaign type of supplement (like Savage World"s Plot Point books), something with some new rules and a goup of adventures. A book that expands on the specializations and talents introduced in the Core book. It will be interesting to see what we get.
mouthymerc said:
If people want to comment on jedi or the lack thereof, put it into this thread that we already have (and a couple more in the Beta forum). Lets save this for more general stuff and not derail it.
Or, yknow, they could admit their mistake, give people the Jedi they clearly want and we could talk about something else…
mouthymerc said:
If people want to comment on jedi or the lack thereof, put it into this thread that we already have (and a couple more in the Beta forum). Lets save this for more general stuff and not derail it.
So what are the type supplements that would compliment EotE? Nothing too era specific. Equipment and ships for one. And it would be easy enough to fill a book with such things from across different eras making it useful to a broader audience. An atlas type book focusing on the outer rim, its peoples and planets and the types of adventures that could done would probably be welcome. Maybe even a campaign type of supplement (like Savage World"s Plot Point books), something with some new rules and a goup of adventures. A book that expands on the specializations and talents introduced in the Core book. It will be interesting to see what we get.
mouthymerc said:
If people want to comment on jedi or the lack thereof, put it into this thread that we already have (and a couple more in the Beta forum). Lets save this for more general stuff and not derail it.
So what are the type supplements that would compliment EotE? Nothing too era specific. Equipment and ships for one. And it would be easy enough to fill a book with such things from across different eras making it useful to a broader audience. An atlas type book focusing on the outer rim, its peoples and planets and the types of adventures that could done would probably be welcome. Maybe even a campaign type of supplement (like Savage World"s Plot Point books), something with some new rules and a goup of adventures. A book that expands on the specializations and talents introduced in the Core book. It will be interesting to see what we get.
Would it be better to have cross era type books or era books with different stuff? Namely would it be better to have a cross era droid book or era books with the droids of the era. Same with droids and ships and planets. So you would have say, a SWTOR book with all the ships, droids, planets and so on, or a droid book with droids of all eras.
ErikB said:
mouthymerc said:
If people want to comment on jedi or the lack thereof, put it into this thread that we already have (and a couple more in the Beta forum). Lets save this for more general stuff and not derail it.
Or, yknow, they could admit their mistake, give people the Jedi they clearly want and we could talk about something else…
you mean like an already planned core book for nothing but Jedi?
Although I love Jedi and am a wee sad we'll have to wait, I like that FFG didn't "dilute" them by making them "just another class", so-to-speak.
I feel the pain Jedi-lovers have, but what's done is done and we have to adapt or boycott. I for one can't/won't boycott because 1) it's Star Wars 2) it's awesome Star Wars and 3) it's Star Wars.
Silver lining, people! Silver lining!
Donovan Morningfire said:
Genghis12 said:
Right -- and there are books coming for those people.
But, if they're going to support EotE. And they're going to support other eras of play beyond just OT era. Well, then…
Then I think it would be an even weirder arrangement if they had a sourcebook mixing different core books. I think they run the risk of alienating people if they force everyone to purchase all core books simply to take full advantage of a supplement. That's the problem with doing the old WEG/WotC era sourcebooks.
I think a more logical EotE-branded product is to actually have an EotE-branded product. And there's definitely room in any era for EotE elements.
But if you do split them out, you run into the problem of folks needing to possibly buy multiple supplements for the same era, one to correspond with each given era of play.
I'm not saying that FFG can't or shouldn't due EotE-only supplments, but I think they'd be better suited to keeping those supplments within the Dark Times or Rebellion Eras, maybe even very early New Republic Era (prior to Luke forming his Jedi Praxuem on Yavin 4 at least), to account for the fact that there's no rules for major military organizations (Age of Rebellion) or Force-users (Force & Destiny). That gives you about a 30 year time frame in which to base your supplements, particularly if you're looking at a single region of space (which could be sold as both supplement and adventure, giving both players and GMs something for their money).
They're probably already going to catch flak for having core rules material (dice mechanics, skills, and talents at the very least) reprinted in each of those other two core books. So it's probably in their best interset to hold off on doing supplements for other eras once the ground rules for military campaigns and Force-centric campaigns have been laid out. You may not give a flying Squib's hindquarters about not having any material for Force-users or military actions in a supplement based upon the Clone Wars or KOTOR/SW:TOR eras, but I'd wager there's a lot more folks that would pass up the book because it lacks that material.
If it means that folks have to wait a couple years for a KOTOR/SW:TOR sourcebook or a Legacy Era sourcebook, both of which feature large military organizations that PCs can be a part of as well as Force-users of various types, then they may simply have to wait a couple years. It's not like FFG isn't already asking folks to wait for military/mass-combat rules or full-fledged Force rules.
I'm honestly thinking that Fiddleback's idea in the "Adventure Packs" thread about having supplements that are roughly one-half sourcebook and one-half adventure(s) is the right track for FFG to take, particularly if the sourcebook portion deals less with eras outside of Dark Times/Rebellion/Early New Republic and more with various regions of space during that time frame.
I think there's definitely room for the old traditional "Gazeteer" type of supplement. Something covering a region of space would concievably be era-neutral and core-book-neutral. That is, full of fluff, details, and history. If a planet or region of space was significant enough to past history, then include notable characters, places and things from the past era supporting all rules. I'm cool with that. It will make a great package. But, I also think each core system also needs its own support. There's no reason why there shouldn't be EotE-specific adventures and supplements. Both commercial, and free pdf's on the website. I don't think a system can survive without that support. The thing is, such all-encompassing, multi-core-book spanning products will by their nature probably more expensive "sourcebook" type of things. I think there's also room for $15.95 and $19.95 more limited products tailored to each specific core book. There's no reason why product support for EotE should have to wait until all of the core books are out. When they all have legs, imagine a "Temple of Elemental Evil" or "Dwarven Rod of Seven Parts" / "Star Wars Vector" style commercial meta-campaign, which spans the entire history of the Star Wars universe, and all core rulebooks. Sort of like FFG's version of something like the Darkstryder box campaign. I think the possibilities are amazing. Regarding the OT vs. everything else. It is a fair point regarding overall popularity. Mind you, we all have our loves, but I don't think there's any denying that the OT (SW / ANH) is THE powerhouse. It is hands down the most popular and most iconic. It's why literally everyone keeps going back to the well. But, there's also the Galaxies / NGE issue at the forefront. By the same token, the majority DO want to be their own Luke Skywalker and fight Darth Vader or their own version of Darth Vader. That strikes at the core of the "Jedi light" / "Their fire has gone out of the galaxy" rule of the era. I do think WEG struck a proper balance. Jedi weren't at the forefront, but if you literally add up all the Jedi introduced, they'd give the Order of old a run for its money in terms of numbers. But, no one ever did. Every few adventures, it'd be an old, crazy Jedi. Or introduce a Jedi on the run. It's great for this era. That all said, that's for Star Wars in general. There's a darn good reason why when it comes to the Role-playing games, the Old Republic era / KotoR-era sourcebooks are some of the most beloved, sought-after, and most in-demand supplements for the games. With the official "eras" -- Old Republic, PT, Dark Times, OT, NR, NJO, and Legacy, I do think there's critical mass for support.
ErikB said:
Or, yknow, they could admit their mistake, give people the Jedi they clearly want and we could talk about something else…
mouthymerc said:
ErikB said:
Or, yknow, they could admit their mistake, give people the Jedi they clearly want and we could talk about something else…
Hey, that record is broken! Wait…I get it. Mean…
Jeffrywith1e said:
In 'Long Arm of the Hutt', it's mentioned that Teemo is attempting to reverse manufacture his own B1 battle droids - which were introduced in Episode I and used throughout the Clone Wars by the Separatists.
I. J. Thompson said:
This? This right here? Spot on. So very, very, spot on.