The FAQ clearly states that the only way to damage Trench run is via blast icons and unopposed damage.
Few questions - regarding new pack and Home One/Trench Run
I agree that the FAQ makes it eminently clear that both blast icons and unopposed bonuses will affect the DS dial when Trench Run has been played. However, I must admit that I am a little surprised by FFG's seemingly contradictory position with this answer. They seem to be confirming that with a card like Target of Opportunity, the damage does not take effect because the Trench Run is "not an objective". However, the rules state on pg. 23 that the unopposed bonus means that it "deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card." A curious thing that this would affect the DS dial, since it is not an objective nor is it an objective card. FFG uses the distinction of a framework effect, which I think only adds more interpretational frustration.
In any case, I will abide by the FAQ ruling in this matter unless an amendment is made by FFG at a later date. (By the way, feel free to play a "house rule" if you disagree. Nothing stops you from changing how you play the game as long as all players are aware of the same "house rule".)
As a side note, my initial thought with the Trench Run card is that it is too powerful, because it means that the LS player, in effect, has replaced the goal of dealing approx. 15 damage to DS objective cards with dealing only 10 damage to the DS dial. And it costs only 1 resource! (so 1 resource has effectively dealt 5 damage.) Upon further reflection in this matter, I realized that restricting cards from being able to add additional damage to the DS dial helps to offset that huge LS benefit, because one is now restricted by how damage can be dealt to the DS dial. (Also, having it as one solitary objective means that the LS player cannot attack it in multiple waves like he can with multiple DS objective cards.) However, as I said before, I am surprised that FFG does not also restrict the unopposed bonus from affecting the DS dial on the same grounds as the card effects. But…c'est la vie!
Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:
I agree that the FAQ makes it eminently clear that both blast icons and unopposed bonuses will affect the DS dial when Trench Run has been played. However, I must admit that I am a little surprised by FFG's seemingly contradictory position with this answer. They seem to be confirming that with a card like Target of Opportunity, the damage does not take effect because the Trench Run is "not an objective". However, the rules state on pg. 23 that the unopposed bonus means that it "deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card." A curious thing that this would affect the DS dial, since it is not an objective nor is it an objective card. FFG uses the distinction of a framework effect, which I think only adds more interpretational frustration.
In any case, I will abide by the FAQ ruling in this matter unless an amendment is made by FFG at a later date. (By the way, feel free to play a "house rule" if you disagree. Nothing stops you from changing how you play the game as long as all players are aware of the same "house rule".)
As a side note, my initial thought with the Trench Run card is that it is too powerful, because it means that the LS player, in effect, has replaced the goal of dealing approx. 15 damage to DS objective cards with dealing only 10 damage to the DS dial. And it costs only 1 resource! (so 1 resource has effectively dealt 5 damage.) Upon further reflection in this matter, I realized that restricting cards from being able to add additional damage to the DS dial helps to offset that huge LS benefit, because one is now restricted by how damage can be dealt to the DS dial. (Also, having it as one solitary objective means that the LS player cannot attack it in multiple waves like he can with multiple DS objective cards.) However, as I said before, I am surprised that FFG does not also restrict the unopposed bonus from affecting the DS dial on the same grounds as the card effects. But…c'est la vie!
Yeah, I really do agree with most all your arguments, as this has been discussed at length already.
I've been very impressed with all of FFG's design choices so far; all but with this one card. I don't think it was properly thought through when they made it. It would either have been too powerful or too weak (as it is now). It's really just an edge battle card at this point, which is a shame, since it's such an essential part of the movies.
Yeah, I think that the card would have been better mechanically to have it be a normal objective card. But thematically, it makes sense this way, because it emulates blowing up the Death Star before it is ready to fire. I think it would have been better if it cost more but cards could affect it, too.
Maybe FFG can make a better version of this card for a future Force pack, since multiple trench run attempts were made in the movie. It could even be called something like "Going in Full Throttle". Then the DS player could have a card that thwarts a trench run somehow, to emulate Vader's response. (Say, that's not a bad idea. Too bad I wouldn't get credit for it.)
I think Trench Run works great the way they clarified the rules. As for providing explanations I don't always agree(Secret of Yavin 4).
The card is supposed to be a long shot, all or nothing, do or die. And restrictions had to be placed on it otherwise it would be too easy for LS to end the game. I only play it if I get it on my first or second turn, after that, it's a pretty weak Edge Battle card.
Also, I won a tourney game by blowing up the Death Star, which in my opinion should win any tie breakers.
I think Trench Run works great the way they clarified the rules. As for providing explanations I don't always agree(Secret of Yavin 4).
The card is supposed to be a long shot, all or nothing, do or die. And restrictions had to be placed on it otherwise it would be too easy for LS to end the game. I only play it if I get it on my first or second turn, after that, it's a pretty weak Edge Battle card.
Also, I won a tourney game by blowing up the Death Star, which in my opinion should win any tie breakers.
dbmeboy said:
I think Trench Run works great the way they clarified the rules. As for providing explanations I don't always agree(Secret of Yavin 4).
The card is supposed to be a long shot, all or nothing, do or die. And restrictions had to be placed on it otherwise it would be too easy for LS to end the game. I only play it if I get it on my first or second turn, after that, it's a pretty weak Edge Battle card.
Also, I won a tourney game by blowing up the Death Star, which in my opinion should win any tie breakers.
Based on some conversations I've had, expect the next FAQ to clean up the Secret of Yavin 4 ruling via some small errata so that it will unambiguously work as described in the FAQ. The main thing: clarification that the rule should be read as each objective can only have engagements declared against it once.
That'll be great. Trench Run I have no problem just pointing to the FAQ and saying, Rebel Assault doesn't work, nor do 3 fate cards against it. It would be too powerful. But the Secret of Yavin objective text was the only one I could not wrap my head around the logical explanation based on the rules. An errata would definately help.
It'd be really cool if FFG could reprint errata'd cards to replace in subsequent sets.
shaggscoob said:
Wh0isTh3D0ct0r said:
I agree that the FAQ makes it eminently clear that both blast icons and unopposed bonuses will affect the DS dial when Trench Run has been played. However, I must admit that I am a little surprised by FFG's seemingly contradictory position with this answer. They seem to be confirming that with a card like Target of Opportunity, the damage does not take effect because the Trench Run is "not an objective". However, the rules state on pg. 23 that the unopposed bonus means that it "deals one bonus damage to the engaged objective card." A curious thing that this would affect the DS dial, since it is not an objective nor is it an objective card. FFG uses the distinction of a framework effect, which I think only adds more interpretational frustration.
In any case, I will abide by the FAQ ruling in this matter unless an amendment is made by FFG at a later date. (By the way, feel free to play a "house rule" if you disagree. Nothing stops you from changing how you play the game as long as all players are aware of the same "house rule".)
As a side note, my initial thought with the Trench Run card is that it is too powerful, because it means that the LS player, in effect, has replaced the goal of dealing approx. 15 damage to DS objective cards with dealing only 10 damage to the DS dial. And it costs only 1 resource! (so 1 resource has effectively dealt 5 damage.) Upon further reflection in this matter, I realized that restricting cards from being able to add additional damage to the DS dial helps to offset that huge LS benefit, because one is now restricted by how damage can be dealt to the DS dial. (Also, having it as one solitary objective means that the LS player cannot attack it in multiple waves like he can with multiple DS objective cards.) However, as I said before, I am surprised that FFG does not also restrict the unopposed bonus from affecting the DS dial on the same grounds as the card effects. But…c'est la vie!
Yeah, I really do agree with most all your arguments, as this has been discussed at length already.
I've been very impressed with all of FFG's design choices so far; all but with this one card. I don't think it was properly thought through when they made it. It would either have been too powerful or too weak (as it is now). It's really just an edge battle card at this point, which is a shame, since it's such an essential part of the movies.
I thought as you two did before the FAQ. After the FAQ, I was still a little disappointed with it. However, I had a thought occur to me recently that changed my perspective a little. First, you have to consider card text and rules text as distinct entities. I used to consider all text as game text, but if you take that view, Trench Run doesn't make sense.
The next issue is Framework Events vs. other in-game events. Framework events always occur. Now I was hung up on this for while. Resolving combat icons is a framework event, but so is resolving fate cards. So why can't Target of Opportunity deal damage? Well Fate cards have card text that tells you to put damage on the DS dial, while combat icons do not involve card text. When I realized this, in light of the revelation that all text is not treated equal, I was able to finally accept the ruling.
At the end of the day, I think better wording for Trench Run would be: "Enhance the Death Star Dial. The Death Star Dial may be engaged like an objective, but it may only be damaged through framework events -- card text that instructs you to deal damage cannot deal damage to the Death Star Dial." Or something like that. It could be written better, but the main point is that it should have just said that card text can't deal damage to the Death Star Dial. I think that would get their point across a lot more clearly.
Our they could have just said "may only be damaged by blast icons and unopposed damage" if that was their intent.