mdc273 said:

I know you've had trouble visualizing this concept before, but here it is:

When you reveal a plot card with the text "when revealed," the effect initiates because the play restriction "when revealed" is true. That's what passive effects do: they initiate when their timing play restricitions are met.

Where you seem to be getting confused on is that the plot effect does not initiate and then check the plot was just revealed. Rather, the plot initiates because "when revealed" is true, just like Golden Tooth Mines initiates because you revealed a plot card. And there is nothing in "when revealed" that requires the plot to be your revealed plot (other than the the plot text is only independently active when it is your revealed plot).

So what is going on is that, rather than being initiated because "when revealed" is true, the plot initiates because City of Spiders tells you to. You do not "check" to see if it is the revealed plot because the "when revealed" timing play restriction on the plot in your used pile has been bypassed by the effect of City of Spiders.

Said another way, "when revealed" is the timing restriction that determines when the effect can initiate on its own. If it is initiated by another effect, you don't "retroactively" un-initiate the effect because the bypassed play restriction is not true.

What is the matching play restriction text on a card like Theon Greyjoy? "After you lose a challenge by 4 or more…" on Theon would be similar to "When Revealed," on a plot in-so-far as both are "initiation text"/"play restrictions" for a passive effect that succeeds them?

Hello! I'd just like to clarify whether the player and the chosen opponent can choose to shuffle their hand outside of the plot phase.

For example, plot cards such as Summoning Season, Counting Favors, The Red Wedding, and Condemned by the Realm have text that, because they are preceeded by the word "then", take effect during the plot phase. However, there plot cards such as Mutual Blackmail, Mutual Enemies, and Doran's Scheme have text whose effects extend beyond the plot phase and noticeably lack the word "then" before it.

Would Negotiations at the Great Sept be in the first or second camp? If it's in the second camp, then Forgotten Plans would negate the ability outside of the plot phase, right? On the other hand, would The Art of Seduction make the effect usable over two turns?