So, anyone have the rules for double dragon handy?

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Originally posted by GraveLord

Double Dragon Rules:

1. Each player has and control their own zones (deck, stage, momentum, etc) and vitality.

2. The team whose players are both knocked and/or decked out loses.

3. No tag-in required. Any player may attack any of the opposing players. A player can block for their teammate. Either team member can play a Reversal after their team blocks an attack. An attack target must be declared each time an attack is played and Reversals must target the player who's attack was blocked.

4. Card effect that affects all cards in play will affect team member as well.

5. Cards and abilities must pass in order from and to all players. Example: Team1Player1 plays an attack, t1p1 gets 1st enhance, then t2p1 gets an enhance, then t1p2 gets an enhance, and then t2p2 gets an enhance and then the enhance proceeds back to the attacking player (t1p1). Same goes for responses... yeah, responses will be crazy complicated.

6. The controlling player must choose a target opponent for abilities that states "opponent" in it's effect. Example: If a player plays Infiltrating, then he must choose which opponent's SA he is targeting, but keep in mind that the target opponent's teammate may intervene to disrupt or negate the ability.

7. Players may only play or activate abilities on cards they control.

8. Turns alternate between teams and the 1st two players start off committed and their Ready Phase skipped.. so the 1st player from each team start off committed and etc.

9. If a player is knocked out and his teammate is able to hold it off for 4 of his own turns, then his teammate may "recover" at 1/4 of his max vitality (rounded down) during the end of the 4th turn. The recovering player draws his handsize and commits his entire staging area.. doesn't ready until his turn.

Deck Constraints:

1. Each individuals deck must comply to the standard deckbuilding rules of UFS.

2. Teammates may not share copies of any cards in their deck or sideboard. Ex: If t1p1 is using any number of copies of Infiltrating, then t1p2 cannot have it.
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Nubian_God said:

Is this true for stuff like arrogance and fio as well? Since those affect your opponent over time (especially arrogance since its a static)

That's all dependant on whoever's running the event, I'd say.

If it was me, with effects like Fio that require you to play them, I'd say that they'd have to choose which opponent it affects. GraveLord set the precendence with static abilities (with J. Talbain, no less =P) that it affects BOTH opponents, so with that ruling Arrogance would nail both opponents during their respective turns.

But like I said, it all comes down to how the TO of the event would like it to play out, as (like with the Brawl events of yore) they're not official rules and therefore have many variants.

how does this work with the bigger they are?

probably since its activated you would get to pick the opponent to compare against, so as long as one of them is taller, you are good (but it would work both ways)

FenMiHuo said:

Correct. Anytime an ability is played that specifies an opponent, you pick which opponent it's refrencing/targeting.

Nubian_God said:

In the case of Talbain, Thai's exact words when I spoke to him on the phone months in advance were "play it as written". Since both people on the other side of the table are your "opponent", and the players on your side of the table are both their "opponent", anytime anyone plays a foundation, both of their opponents are able to drop a foundation.

In the case on generic abilities like Start Over/Begin Anew/etc that say something like "Destroy all foundations", because it doesn't specify a target, it hits everything. Infiltrating, on the other hand, does say "your opponent's staging area", so you would indeed choose a target. I wonder, though, whether you choose a target when attempting to play the card or at resolution of its effect...

It's also worth mentioning (since I don't think it's listed) that when a player blocks for his/her teammate, they take the damage from the attack, and not their teammate, whom they were blocking for. In a situation like this, cards like Chief Hold DO NOT work.

Yes, the player who blocked the attack would take the damage if it still deals damage.

If I had to make any amendments to the original rules, it'd have to be #9. If a player can hold out on his own for 3 of his own turns then his teammate will "regain consciousness" (if not decked out) and return to 1/4 of his/her starting vitality.

Somebody please point Nfxon (Ben) to this post since I'm never home so I can't email him the electronic copy of the DD rules.

Thanks Thai I got it all worked out

ok ok, new question

Promo Q*

F Commit: If your hand size is less then 10, both characters' hand sizes are permanently increased by one and both players destroy 1 card in their staging area.

Now, this does not say your opponent, or all, it says both, do I get to choose who the other player is? (aka my teammate)

FenMiHuo said:

With a situation like this (normally affecting all players in a 1v1 game), I'd rule it to where it'd affect all of the players. I only say this because it doesn't single out only your opponent or only yourself. In the future, coming up with a loose translation of phrases so these cards will work better in multiplayer events would be helpful. Example:

Both players = all players

Your opponent = choose which one opponent is being targeted

Just something like that. I like the whole multiplayer game formats (Brawls, Double Dragon, etc) and something like this would help clarify confusion and make events like this more widespread.

I agree. UFS was made to be a 1v1 game thus when saying both players they mean "all players" since both would be all in a standard game.

So for the cases of the DD format "both players" would mean "all players".

How do turns work? I'm assuming it's T1P1 (assuming T1 goes first), T2P1, T1P2, T2P2. Or is it T1P1, T1P2 then T2P1, T2P2?

Turns alternate from team to team.

So team 1 player 1 goes 1st then team 2 player 1, then team 1 player 2 and then team 2 player 2.

Thanks, Nubian_God, for pointing me to this thread.

Thai and I have always had very similar thoughts regarding deck building and alternate game formats. A lot of the rules here are very similar to my brawl rules.

I agree with the "both players = all players" and "your opponent = target opponent" rules, though I would make tweaks (see my Brawl rules, below).

Thai, I like the change from a 4-turn KO to a 3-turn KO before you revive. In a multiplayer format like that, 3 turns is a long time. I also really like the rule where, "If you block an attack, you become the target of the attack and take any partial damage."

There are three things that I think could use some clarity:

1) If an ability refers to "your opponent," then it refers to the same opponent throughout the ability. (All opponents within a given ability and its effect are the same.)

2) The turn order/card pools. Each player has their own staging area, their own card pool, etc. distinct from their partners, and turns proceed t1p1, t2p1, t1p2, t2p2. I think the default seating arrangement should be like Bridge or Spades: you sit across from your partner, and play proceeds clockwise. It means you can't show each other your hands, as in MtG's Two-Headed Giant, but I think that makes the game more interesting, if less obviously cooperative. There should also be clarity about which players start committed. In the above format, I would start t1p1 and t2p1 committed, and have their partners start ready.

3) When you revive with 1/4 of your life, is that rounded up or down?

Here are my Brawl rules, for reference. I tried to nail down details, but I've left out some that don't apply to Double Dragon format:

1. As a player plays an attack (before any costs have been paid or any control check has been made), that player must choose and declare a target for that attack.

4. If you play an E ability, or if you play an R ability in response to an attack (being played, reaching a particular step, being blocked, dealing damage, resolving, etc.) and that ability refers to "your opponent", then:
--4a. if you played the attack, "your opponent" refers to the target of the attack.
--4b. if an opponent played the attack, "your opponent" refers to the opponent who played the attack.

5. If an F ability is played, or if an R ability is played NOT in response to an attack (being played, etc., as in rule 4), and that ability refers to "your opponent", then the player of the ability must, when declaring the ability, choose which opponent (target) the ability refers to.

6. If an ability refers to "your opponent" multiple times, it always refers to the same opponent.

7. If you play an E ability, or if you play an R ability in response to an attack (being played, etc., as in rule 4), and that ability refers to "both players" or "you and your opponent", then:
--7a. if you played the attack, the ability affects only you and the target of the attack.
--7b. if an opponent played the attack, the ability affects only you and the player who played the attack.

8. If an F ability is played, or if an R ability is played NOT in response to an attack (being played, etc., as in rule 4), and that ability refers to "both players" or "you and your opponent", then that ability affects ALL players.
--8a. Responses of this kind that respond to a "Form" being played (notably Order & Law ) affect all players, even if the form being played is an attack.

9. During your attack (or in response to your attack, as in rule 4), when you generate or play another attack (the kick played from Koshu To's E, copies generated by Multiple, any attack Chicanery'd in, etc.), that new attack MUST be directed at the same target as the original attack.
(It's all stemming off one attack, so it's going in the same direction.)

10. During your attack (or in response to your attack, as in rule 4), when your opponent generates or plays another attack (card named "Reversal," cards played as reversals, etc.), that attack MUST be directed at you.
(They're responding to your attack, and that means they're responding AT YOU.)

11. When a trigger comes up, all players take turns playing Responses to that trigger, starting with the player whose turn it is, and moving in a clockwise direction. When all players have passed in succession on playing a response, no more responses to that trigger may be played.

ARMed_PIrate said:

Hey, thanks for all of the input! I liked how you fleshed out a lot of the details and different circumstances, as along the lines of what I was hoping for. If you have the rules for your Brawl format posted, I'd be much obliged if you'd direct me to it.

As for the above, I know that Thai had us start the way you suggested (where both starting players on each team had their characters committed). It'd be interesting with the seating arrangement, but for it to be successful, we'd have to figure out any limit to conversing with your partner and what is considered to be illegal communication.

With the 1/4 vitality, I don't know as we never came across that situation (my partner was knocked off by the time his 3rd turn came around, as commendable as such a feat is =P), so I don't know if it's rounded up or down.

Again, thanks for the 2 cents!

Nubian_God said:

The seating arrangement would be interesting and probably good for the format. The problem, then, would come from the actual seats: most tables aren't conducive to this sort of thing =/

But there should definitely be clearly defined rules on just how much communication between players is legal. I think it would likely be okay for partners to be able to see each other's hands, so long as that's the end of it - allowing them to talk about or indicate what should be done by pointing to cards or something is probably too much info. Just being able to look at the partner's hand should be enough, I think.

I think that they should be allowed to talk i mean they are teammates after all i dont see what that would hurt and besides if they talk 2 much then they are just going to give away what they are trying to do 2 their opponents

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

I'm down with teammates communicating with each other, but the problem arises when it takes up a significant amount of time, which is why we'd need some kind of rule in place governing such communication so it's commonly known when it's gone too far.

Exactly. It's like what Thai said when we were getting ready: "talking between teammates is fine, but one person can't play the game for the other person (tell them play this, this, then this, enhance with that then, etc)".

If a team is in tune, they should be able to know what to do just by seeing each other's hands. At least I think so. But I know how my teammate's deck plays all too well, so my input it useless, really.

True it shouldnt take long to see your opponent cant block and you block for them or to know when to use an enhance in yoru own deck so you shouldnt have to say to much to that extent but you might have to say a few words back and forth at the beginning of the turn or when your opponent does something unexpected

See, a few words in one thing. But where's the line? It's a slippery slope. One person can't make all the play decisions, you know? And at some point in time, SOMEBODY will call the other team out on stalling (hasn't happened yet, but I can definitely see somebody trying to do that).

Worth considering is a possible addition to the rules that a player who is "unconscious" cannot confer with their teammate until they are back in the game.

We'll leave that to the discretion of the organizer. Can't really make that a game rule.. more of a tournament organizer guideline, but this event is just a special event that I made up. Unless FFG adapts this format and make amendments themselves there will be preferences per event based on Scout's translation.