Hello everyone - I've recently been spending the time to create custom characters, and I enjoy FFG's Make A Hero system, but generally dislike the abilities available as they lack the personality of the official heroes.

I was wondering if anyone could give me feedback if they felt these characters potentially upset the game's balance.

The first one up is similar to Eliam, with more focus on melee, and was inspired by the Monkey King character from the Chinese novel Journey To The West :

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 3

Armor: 1

Movement: 5

2 melee dice and 1 magic die

1 fighting skill and 2 wizardry skills

Ability: Character may spend 3 fatigue to use the Leap ability.

Thanks and hope to hear some feedback!

I think the ability is a bit too weak. What about lowering the fatigue cost to 2?

Jetjagaa said:

Hahaaha, I think I've said twice in the last couple days we need some Heroes with Leap.

I agree that you should lower it to 2 fatigue. A smart OL isn't going to line up his monsters for you to hit with a Leap, so unlike Eliam who can do sweep your chances of using the ability are a bit less.

I would drop the movement to 4 and see if you afford to switch the 3rd skill from Wizardry to Melee. Having 2 in Wizardry isn't going to do much for this guy so you are better off seeing if you can get 2 in Melee. Alternatively he might actually be better served as a Melee/Subterfuge than Wizardry but I could see it either way. Its just a matter of which Wizardry vs Subterfuge skills you would pull and have be useful:

Wizardry: Telekinesis, Water Pact, and Vampiric Blood would be good skills on this guy

Subterfuge: Acrobat, Lucky, Pick Pocket, Shadow Soul, Skilled and Swift would all work for this guy. Especially Shadow Soul, Skilled or Swift.

So I would actually think about switching to that. Really what you need to do is just play a Quest or two with him and see how it goes. If you own RtL, just grab a a dungeon card or two and run him through it with some other Heroes.

I fail to see how Water Pact, Acrobat, Lucky, or Pick Pocket would be especially good on this hero. In fact, while Acrobat is a good skill in general, it seems noticeably less useful on a hero that already has one way to move through monsters and obstacles.

As I noted in the other thread, there are some ambiguities in the Leap ability that will become more important when a hero has it, so you should probably make sure all players are on the same page before playtesting.

Antistone said:

Acrobat and Water Pact would make it easier for the Hero to get positioned to do a Leap attack. Pickpocket more for just generating money for what is really a striaght line AoE attack, and Lucky....well yeah that was stupid

Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely lowering the cost to 2 , as being able to use telekinesis, or any fatigue exhausting skill, to line monsters up and then leap them would be great. My main idea behind the lack of Subterfuge was originally its focus on range modifiers, but most of the abilities you listed, Big Remy, would be useful for positioning. Perhaps 1 Fighting, 1 Subterfuge and 1 Wizardry?

Also, though I'd love to get more advice on the 1st character, i figured I'd list the 2nd as well. This is my attempt at creating a brawling, emotionally crippled, drunk:

Wounds: 20

Fatigue: 4

Armor: 0

Movement: 3

3 Melee Dice

3 Fighting Skills

Ability: Character can hold 6 potions without affecting his pack.

I'm also considering having him unable to wear armor. Thematically I think it's hilarious and appropriate for the character always feeling pain.

Looks kind of weak. I'd probably up his movement and fatigue, and/or give him some sort of bonus when drinking a potion--"drunk" may be an objective flaw in real life, but you want the character to be balanced, regardless of his flavor. You also didn't list a conquest value--I'd probably keep it at 3, especially if you forbid armor.

Forgot to list both character's conquest...but I agree on 3, for both of them actually.

Maybe when he consumes a potion he's awarded +2 damage?

I think you are underestimating the power of the leap attack guy. He might be fine in basic decent, but in RTl would get crazy. I assume that he is attacking with a weapon when he leaps. Then if he had cleave he could jump over 3 people, get 3 kills, and then get 3 cleave attacks on a person next to him. A leap attack seems to be in place of a regular attack, so he might be able to use a guard order to leap on the OL's turn, or leap using the alertness skill.

I see you have a magic die. Leap with runes would be even more absurd. If he leaps with a blast rune, that's armageddon as the blasts overlap.

Also, remember that a leap attack doubles movement. So to start with, he could leap 10 spaces with an advance action. But then he gets the boots of +2 movement and a fatigue upgrade, and he is leaping 18 spaces. Leap also makes him immune to grapple, and able to cross otherwise blocked areas. It also allows him to make melee attacks vs soaring creatures.

The one downside of him is that he will be a crushing block magnet. A block that pushes him one space away could throw off his leap. Unless you think while leaping trap(space) cards don't work, which would make it even stronger.

There needs to be more limits on the skill then just "gains the leap ability" I think. The exact amount would depend on your play group.

How about for the potion Barbarian: can hold 6 potions, can swap potions for different types (Like Aurim), and for 1 movement can give a potion to any hero within 5 spaces. Alternatively, can hold 6 potions, and can drink up to 2 potions a turn, instead of 1. Both those options would give him interesting tactical options. Both are also might bump him up into the 4 conquest range though.

Badend said:

The use of the word "immediately" on the Cleaving skill suggests to me that you couldn't get more than one cleave attack for monsters that you kill with a single attack, because the second and later attacks cannot be taken "immediately."

Badend said:

Not unless you can find some way to get movement points during the overlord's turn. Leap distance is limited by MP, and a Leap attack that doesn't actually go anywhere is worthless.

Badend said:

A convincing argument could be made that Blast doesn't work on a Leap attack at all, since there is no defined "target space," but even in a worst-case scenario, a figure cannot be affected more than once by a single attack, even an AoE attack that hits it in more than one space.

In fact, I'd be inclined to rule that all of the current AoE powers (Blast, Breath, Bolt, Leap, and Sweep) are mutually exclusive and you can't use more than one of them at once--mostly because I don't see any support in the existing rules to cover their interactions.

Badend said:

Interesting point. The FAQ allows interrupting a partially-completed Leap with a Guard order, which would seem to support allowing Trap (Space) cards to be played as well, but it's not clear exactly how you'd resolve them mechanically, and thematically most of them are inappropriate. Yet another ambiguity you'd want to rule on before playing.

Antistone said:

I'm not sure about the Trap (Space) cards. From the diagram in the rulebook, it shows the Blood Ape leaping over an rubble obstacle which suggests to me that the Leap (for the purposes of determing an empty space for a trap) operates more like Knockback. So you could play a trap on the landing square, but not the intervening ones.

Were they to make a character with Leap, I would hope the ability would be worded something like this:

"Instead of making a Melee attack, Joe the Monkey Man may spend 2 fatigue to make a Leap attack using the equipped Melee weapon"

Eliminates problems with ranged and magic weapons, by limiting it to Melee (which the Blood Ape is anyways) and gives it a fatigue cost to use (I randomly picked 2)

As for all the comments concerning my random statement about a Bash hero...it was a random statement. I wouldn't just give a Hero Bash with no restrictions, give me some credit here . I'd want Bash to cost at least 2 Fatigue, limit it to having to be done with a 2 handed weapon and possibly (and not saying it should be) make it an option only when declaring a Battle action (so instead of 2 attacks, you make one Bash attack). Takes care of the Aiming part people thought would be too crazy, gets rid of Off Hand bonus issues for the Hero and the Battle stipulation makes sense thematically (oh such an ugly word!)

Badend said:

It would be kinda funny to convert the distance he failed to leap because of the location of the trap into damage...

Big Remy said:

That discussion was actually in the other custom hero thread...though if it were limited to 2-handed melee weapons, I think it could be optional, free, and allow aiming and still not be particularly powerful. As I said in that thread, with an axe, even allowing aiming, it's not even advantageous except against very powerful monsters. Add on a fatigue cost and forbid aiming and it's probably nearly worthless.

Antistone said:

Just in the spirit of intellectual pursuit, it could be argued that you can have MP on the overlord's turn. The rules on movement say "the player may choose not to use all of the figure’s available movement points." Also, "A hero receives a number of movement points based on his speed and the action he takes on his turn. For example, a running hero with a speed of 4 receives 8 movement points." And "A hero that runs may move up to a number of spaces equal to twice his speed during his turn." So putting them together, you can only take the movement during your turn, and the movement resets at the start of your next turn, but MP you have left over stays with you. Movement and movement points are used interchangably, so I will call these remaining points "remaining movement".

Now I beleive that you can only spend MP or do movement actions on your turn, although I am having a hard trouble finding where in the rules this is stated. If not, you could take a 0 MP action on the OL turn (such as dropping your weapon when you are dark charmed and the OL is 1 conquest from winning). But leap attack is phrased "To do so, the figure moves in a straight (i.e., not diagonal) line up to twice its remaining movement." So in Tarzan's case his guard leap is using his remaining (unspent) movement from his turn.

This is stretching the rules pretty far I know, but it would be fun if it worked like that. Tarzan would need to save movement, possibly even spending fatigue for moves that he won't use, just to be able to have the potential to make a big guard leap.

I see two problems with this line of reasoning. One of which could be argued to be a problem with the FAQ sucking rather than actually being a problem with your reasoning, but I'll get to that.

The first is that nowhere (that I can find) does it say that your movement points are reset at the beginning of your turn. Yes, you receive movement points at the start of your turn based on the action you declare, but it doesn't say those replace movement points you already have--normally when you gain something, it adds to your total, rather than replacing it. If you had a feat card that said "you gain 3 movement points" or some such, no one would argue that means that you also lose any movement points you already had.

Therefore, either you have to say that you can retain movement points across turns--maybe declare 3 run actions at the beginning of the game and then save them so you can move while performing battle actions later--or you have to say that it is implied that you lose movement points that you don't spend. And if you're going to lose them by default, I see no reason to say that happens at the start of your next turn, and that you can't spend them when it's not your turn--that's unnecessarily complicated. I think it would be much simpler and more natural to say that they expire at the end of the turn in which you received them.

The second problem is that the latest FAQ implies (page 6) that you actually do spend movement points during a Leap, the actual printed rules for the Leap ability notwithstanding:

Q: If a Blood Ape makes a Leap without making a Leap attack, do his remaining movement points still get used?
A: Yes.

Admittedly, this does not explicitly change or override the rules, it merely tacitly (and perhaps unintentionally) confirms an unsupported presupposition of the question. And it raises more questions than it answers, as I already complained in the FAQ thread.

But frankly, the thing where Leap doesn't actually consume the movement points that fuel it was stupid in the first place and it ought to be changed, otherwise we end up with stupid loopholes where Blood Apes can open and close doors after leaping and heroes can drink potions and re-equip and stuff like that, not to mention all the crazy things that happen when FFG release some future expansion and some unforeseen interaction somehow allows you to leap more than once per turn.

I love how in depth the analyzation of this has become, and I wish I could contribute back to it with the same eloquence and focus. Nonethless, how does this sound:

"Once per turn, may spend 2 fatigue and 5 movement points before making a melee attack to give that attack the leap ability"

This is my attempt at creating a brawling, emotionally crippled, drunk:

Wounds: 20

Fatigue: 4

Armor: 0

Movement: 3

3 Melee Dice

3 Fighting Skills

Ability: Character can hold 6 potions without affecting his pack.

I'm also considering having him unable to wear armor. Thematically I think it's hilarious and appropriate for the character always feeling pain.

I really like this character concept and would like to weigh in on a couple things. First of all, I disagree that this character should be a conquest rating of 3. In order to do that, it would cost 1 BP according to the build chart based on the 20 wounds and 0 armor stats. The other option is to make him a rating of 4 and gain 2 BP's (see pg. 2 of the hero maker).

As a human, having raised wounds twice and lowered armor and movement once each, that would be a push and thus leave you with 14 points, of which you used 6 for dice and 6 for skills. The remaining 2 really only give you room for an entry tier ability, since you don't have 4 left over. The ability to carry the extra 3 potions is pretty minimal as is being able to drink 2 in a turn. I think getting +1 damage towards the next attack in return for drinking them would be too powerful, without splitting your dice OR card selection to 2 melee and 1 of another category, thus giving you the points to afford a 2nd tier ability.

I also think at the first tier you should get either the ability to drink 2 in a turn or get the +1 damage, but not both (in addition to being able to carry 6). At the second tier I'd say you should be able to do all 3 and possible even get +2 damage out of each potion, but maybe that should be reserved for the 9 BP 3rd tier Drunk ability.

Again, nice work on the characters, I think your added language to the Leaping Hero would keep it fairly well balanced.

Here's a new one. Again, I'm worried it's unbalanced. Also I'm having a hard time phrasing the ability without awkward language resulting.

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 2

Armor: 2

Movement: 5

2 melee Dice

1 Ranged Die

2 Fighting Skills

1 Subterfuge skill

Ability: Has 4 hands to hold weapons (2 two-handed weapons, 1 two-handed and 2 one-handed weapons, etc.)

4 Conquest

I think you should limit it to 3 hands for weapons. 4 hands means he could have 4 sheilds equipped at once. If he has the ambidexdrous skill then that means that 4 1 point sheilds will absorb 8 wounds on him each turn, or he could fight with a 1 handed weapon and 3 1 point sheilds for 6 protection. Thats way too much to be able to do with shop sheilds (assuming that there are 4 in the deck). Or he could have 4 1 handed weapons and get +6 damage on a town sword. 3 hands will still be very strong with the ambidextrous skill, but not broken given that he is mediocre in other respects.

Alternatively, there is a hero in Tomb of Ice who can wield a 2 handed weapon in 1 hand, which is kind of similar to this guy. You might want to use him.

All good points. Think it'd be better if his stats were more powerful but the ability was that he'd be able to swap out weapons during battle without any cost?

I believe there are currently no rules for what happens if you've got 3 or more melee weapons equipped, so any ability that lets the hero do that requires a rules extension to cope with it.

Some skill cards I'm including in The Enduring Evil that are similar:

Shieldmaster: You can equip 1 shield without using a hand slot.

Prestidigitation: You do not pay movement points when re-equipping or trading items. You may take items from adjacent heroes during your turn (with their permission).

Heraldry: Runes do not count against your limits for equipped items or items in your backpack.

IMO, most hero abilities are worse than most skills, so if you wanted to use any of these directly, a nerf to his stats might be in order. Then again, there's various reasons that each of these could be more or less powerful in a normal game than in The Enduring Evil...

Antistone said:

Ooo! I'd love to see a "drunken master" type character. Something like, after drinking any potion, he gains the Dodge and Aim ability.

-shnar

Antistone said:

What rules would need to change with more than two hands? I was thinking about a multi-armed Hero too, and couldn't think of any rule that would need to be altered. Having extra hands does not mean extra attacks. You would just have the ability to hold more off-hand weapons and/or shields, plus have more options without having to backpack swap (i.e. sword + dagger + crossbow + shield).

What rules would need to be changed?

-shnar

Mainly you need to make a ruling on whether or not it's possible to gain multiple off-hand bonuses, and whether two-handed melee weapons should grant any sort of off-hand bonus.

A ranged or magic character wielding two weapons just has more options; a melee character actually gets to make a stronger attack than any weapon alone. That's an important scaling consideration if you're going to change the normal limitations.

Having several weapons equipped just so that you can pick what to attack with is pretty weak; balance-wise, you pretty much have to assume that every extra hand slot is going to be providing either a shield or an off-hand bonus.