I recently decided to start playing dust and one of my first purchases, aside from the revised core set was an M2 walker that I had originally plannes on building into a steel rain. Then I managed to find a line on a Dust Tactics original core set meaning I now have effectively 3 M2 walker model kits. My question is am I correct in going with the steel rain for one of the three, and which 3 would be the best to go with out of the 4 walkers the kit can make, any advice on the light, M3, and heavy kits would be appreciated as well. (I currently have additional light kit aside from the blackhawk, 1 M3 kit, and 2 heavy kits.)

I personally like the M3 walkers more then the M2 series but the pounder is always a decent choice, The mickey is good too; the hotdog is crap it's too slow to get into range for the flamethrower. I generally find the medium walkers die much too quickly for what they cost so I tend to not field them very often though.

rahal777 said:

Well, keep in mind you aren't making any one from the kit - it is a variety of turrets that can be swapped out. Try out the Steel Rain, if you would like and if it doesn't work out, just don't use it and put on another turret.

As for my opinions on the M2 and M3 series - I am not a fan of Vehicle 4 in the Allies. As a long-time Allied player, I know our faction can do everything we need with our infantry or with twin Air Drop Fireballs. Even our Cobra/Rattler are not that stellar, considering how fast they die to just about any antitank firepower in the game.

I would say, if you are looking at a purchase list, pick up 2-3 Grim Reapers, 1-2 Tank Busters, 4+ BBQ Squads, 1-2 Boss Squads, and try a squad of Hammers w/ Rhino, All of that is a solid core to build from, imo.

Also, if you want to talk more about it - head over to Dust-War.com and I can take a gander at your lists ideas, etc.

sure, if you're playing 300+ points. If you're in a Zverograd campaign, where you have 150 points, the Mickey is the best choice.

Sheesh, you people are like the 40K players whining "But I don't have everything I want!" whenever they're challenged to take less than 2500 points…

Warboss Krag said:

I play 300 AP games almost exclusively, except for some the Hades campaign I was participating in. The list of items I gave him was a core that allows him to build many lists from - not just one list.

And at 150, I run a Cobra and a Rattler, when I don't run a single Air Drop Fireball. The Mickey competes with the Cobra, which it simply can't compare. Rolling 5/1 against Soldiers and 3/2 on Vehicles that ignore armor and can Overcharge (and increases in firepower at 16" with the MGs) far, far exceed what the Mickey can do. And the Rattler has 36" range and loads of dice on Soldier units for a cheap price tag and is fair at AA too.

If I ever go up against anyone like you, remind me to bring the Laser Grenadiers. Over 50% of your force in armor. Target-rich environment!

Warboss Krag said:

Laser Grenadiers have one gun that can hurt V4… so…

So it sounds like I unfortunately ended up with three of the wrong medium walker chassis, so it is with getting the original core set I guess, I just couldn't resist the siren call of bazooka joe. Thanks for the advice all, now I know to stay away from the Hot Dog, should I similarly stay away from the Punisher? It seems pretty expensive, but I also like the idea of being able to "reach out and touch someone" with the dual howitzer, but I guess with an air dropped fireball at 10 less points it's sort of moot.

Edit: also Em_en_oh_pee, thanks for the invite to dust-war.com, I tried to create an account earlier, but for some reason it wouldn't let me register and kept trying to log me in in "maintenance mode" any advice on how to go about registering? Cheers.

rahal777 said:

We had to move our forums due to some issues. Give it a try again. If that fails, try this:

Start -> Run -> CMD -> ipconfig /flushdns

Also, the medium walker chassis is good to have - just try to pick up some Rattler/Cobra turrets, as those are the best V4 Walkers the Allies can muster.

As for Punisher, you are right. Fireball is one of my go-to walkers.

I will look for you on Dust-War.com - I am OldHat there.

rahal777 said:

Don't be too gun-shy about using the walkers, they can perform.

Opinions vary greatly on what is and isn't good. The reality is that 90% of it comes down to personal preference. Play with them and form your own opinion, then check back and see how that stacks up against other opinions.

That said, the Rattler/Cobra is a must have for Allied players.

The best part about the Allied walkers, since you have M2 legs already, is buying one M3 walker box will allow you to field both the Rattler adn Cobra instantly.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Honestly, I don't use the Cobra or Rattler even. Considering how often I have lost a Cobra (or two) in the first turn before it can do anything, I have given up on V4 units for the Allies. All of the infantry the Allies have do it better or do something similar in a better package. Rattler? I prefer Grim Reapers. Cobra? I prefer Hammers (different, but have a similar role).

I would say invest in your infantry first and foremost.

Also, I wouldn't say it is 90% perference - I love my Medium Walkers, but their durability and firepower ratios are not so hot in the current competitive environment. When most dedicated anti-tank can single-shot a Rattler or Cobra, it is hard to justify their inclusion, especially when Soldier units hide better, can take Heroes for extra wounds/perks, and are often more mobile (BBQ being Fast, S3 units having Jump).

Just my opinon, obviously, but I have tested this stuff out pretty thoroughly for many months now.

Of course, if you are playing for just fun - this stuff is moot. Rule of cool takes precedence then.

I was thinking about a rebuttal, mostly based on vehicle-mounted artillery, when I thought of the infantry support sets coming out that have mortars in them. Yikes. Pretty soon even the German and Sov vehicle-mounted rockets/mortars will be running into serious infantry artillery competition.

The fact does remain, though, that vehicles mount weaponry that can and will 'touch' you at long range, outranging the infantry. The Cobra doesn't have much of a chance in a long-range duel against a Matrioshka's 36" reach BL-10s (okay, they may call it the MS-202, but I know that 152mm gun of old from World of Tanks - use it and been used by it - and it's a BL-10 Doom Gun from where I sit! Just an auto-loading modification). In a more open-field situation, such beasts are deadly. Like the March Battle tournament scenario, where there's a dead zone in the middle of the field. (Face facts, true believers - the SSU has two really obnoxious long-range units with the Matrioshka and the IS-48 122mm gun version. They can and do threaten the big 99-point units for fewer points.) Naturally infantry is going to dominate at close quarters; a unit of german A3 MG troops supporting a heavy laser grenadier team is nasty. But in open-field combat, tanks thrive.

The Steel Rain is the only artillery option available to the Allieds, so having a Steel Rain available add versatility. That being said the Steel Rain can hit anything on the table at any time.

The Pounder is also a nice choice as it has a 36" reach. If your vehicles are dying in turn one, then you are doing something wrong.

The reason for fielding an M2 is range.

Oh yes indeed. But I've still acquired an M3 set, just because my main opponent has a Horten. By the way, they are lovely (the Horten flier). Wish that FFG hadn't knocked back the issue of the Icarus book for at least another month…

spoook said:

36" range goes both ways. The Wotan has that, too. And the Laser-Jagd can reach my Cobras, since both have the same range (and the Cobra will struggle to kill the Laser-Jagd, while the Laser-Jagd can rather easily one-shot my Cobra). The reason they die is because deployment alternates and if I don't bait my opponent, they will line up at 42" and just move up and shoot out at max range if they need to. Hell, sometimes they don't even need to move.

Steel Rain is too expensive for what it does - since it doesn't have Burst, a lot of it goes down to various degrees of cover. And if you Observers/Radioman are killed, it becomes drastically worse.

Also, the Rattler is not that great against flyers. Grim Reapers toss an additional 5 dice, albeit at a shorter range (effective range 28" vs effective 42"). It is a lot easier to hide and defense the Reapers, which is even more true when you throw Ozz in.

I am just not a fan of the Allied Walkers - especially given the potency of their all-infantry list options.

Pff, German laser-jaegers normally miss. They don't roll enough dice to be worth the cool models, frankly. (Having your long-ranged vehicles actually in cover helps a lot too; advice for the cover-adverse…) And oddly, I usually end up losing more infantry than vehicles all the time; something about there being more anti-infantry weapons on the table rolling more dice and getting more hits, and about infantry having to close to a shorter range because their weapons won't work beyond 16".

When Laser-Jagd roll their first Sustained Attack, they are basically a Wotan that rolls Lasers on Blanks. That is extremely potent. Also, I do deploy into cover as often as I can, but when a Laser-Jagd or Wotan puts 8+ damage on my vehicle, cover means jack.

I lose plenty of infantry to, but I also can field a whole lot more of it than my vehicles - making the latter a precious resource. Losing each one to a single shot is less than pleasant and is a major failing of most V4 in the game, made more pronounced by the Allies who really only light and mediums in any real numbers and the venerable Fireball, which is a monster.

In the end, I stick by my all-infantry stance for Allies and it has served me very well. At least, until Icarus hits and we can start tossing Pelicans around.

em_en_oh_pee said:

They only hit on Blanks if they are upgraded with High Vis, then only on the secondary attack. Sustain Fire also only affects the initial two dice shot, not the secondary roll.

ItsUncertainWho said:

All of that is clear to those of us who play, IUW.

Well I'm new to Dust (3 games) and picked up two M2 walkers the pounder set and cobra/rattler set. I found it a good buy, with two basic chassis and all the swappable turets its great.

I found the options now let me play a variety of combination as I get into the game and get use to all the other versions. So far I have used the Rattler as my main opponent is SSU and runs a helo. Played the rattler twice, good but med range unit.

Next up for a couple of games is the pounder.

Yeah, the rattler is a good answer to anything that flies. And since it wreaks havoc on light armor and infantry at 36" range, it's a good all-round unit, particularly since it's the same cost as a Mickey. The only walker that's a better deal is, of course, the Hans. I wish we could get the Barking Dog load-out: Six recoilless rifles, a la Ontos. That'd put paid to the Sov heavy stuff that can and does run around scaring the dog-poop out of everyone else's more expensive super-heavies.