The beauty of FFG's expansions is that they often add little rules and units to the base game that make the game that much more interesting. Like the AT guns in Days of Fox, or destroying structures in Normandy. It's these little touches that make the game better and better with each expansion. Also, apart from whole armies, adding a few odd units in each expansion also raises the value of the game, like the aforementioned AT guns.

What small rules that are added to the base game during gameplay would you like to see in the next expansions and what units would you like to see added in the expansions as well? These rules and units aren't directly related to the expansion's theme itself.

What I'd like to see is a 3 hex bridge and a set of wide river tiles to make epic take the bridge scenarios. Maybe even small boats tossed in to make it interesting. As for new rules I think the cards to a pretty good job of that. Might consider a card expansion with new commanders and special effects.

I think it would come handy some expansion or let us say some upgrade pack containing few soldier figures and vehicle miniatures from all till now published armies [as a replacement for those lost or missing] and more map boards (similar to those in TOI base game) [in order not to hoave to buy another TOI base game because of lack of suitable addittional maps]

Yes, another set of leadership decks would be good too [i can imagine von Paulus, Zukov, and several American and Japanese admirals], but it will probably have to wait till Russian and Pacific expansions.

Artemis said:

You know there's this neat map expansion out right now, with all the maps and tiles from the base game (with enhanced graphics)?

Ther are a few that I would like to see added.

1. Some adjustment needs to be made for the American 50 cal MG. U.S. halftracks and priests had a 50 cal mounted as well as some jeeps. The 50 cal is a much better MG than what the Germans and Brits had, yet by the existing rules it is the same or little better at best.

2. BAR browning automatic rifle. Standard equipment for the U. S. , but does not even appear in the rules.

3. Recon Sorry guys, but the rules do a very poor job for recon. A speciality token does NOT cut the mustard. We need Jeeps, Grayhounds, Humbers, 250 German halftracks and various German armored cars, ie 222, 234 , puma etc. Recon was an important part, the EYES so to speak of any advance. There were many conflicts of a larger nature brought on by opposing recon units stumbling onto one another. In addition a battle between light vehicles such as a recon force can be an interesting scenario and there were many that actually happened. Also all recon vehicles had radios ( for calling in artillery, amoung other uses)

4. Additional abilities for engineers such as bridging. All forces used assault bridging. The most notable is Rommel in his dash across France, the Brits in operation market garden and the Americans 2nd bridge at Remagen, finished under fire just before the Lundendorf rail bridge collapsed

5. Submachine guns, what an oversight that they have not been included. Every nation had them in large quanities. All American officers had one , all assault engineers had them, panzer grenadiers had them, British officers had them, Russian infantry had them ,nearly 25%

6. Flails, flame throwing tanks and bridging tanks. No figs required, just additional rules. These were extensively used by the Brits and Americans.To give the Germans all the vehicles that have been in the various games and expansions and the Americans got a sherman and an M10, well excuse me but what a big whoopie. Sounds like bias towards the Germans to me. Yeah I have heard your responses before ( The Germans had so many more varieties of vehicles) Yes, however the Americans and to some extent the Brits had a greater VARIETY OF USES

7. A speciality token for exceptional squad leaders. All nations had heroic leaders in the basic ranks. I know the leader decks have generic effects that apply to all the squads. I am talking about the individuals that rose to a crises, whether they were a private, sargeant or Lt. These were the men who earned the various medals such as the Iron Cross, Medal of Honor, Victoria's Cross. This specialty token should be cabable of being assigned to ANY squad, including squads with other special abilities, or weapons.

8. Different loads for tank and artillery. Armor piercing, high explosive, smoke, WP (willie pete)

9. Corrections for target size and movement. A fast moving armored car or jeep (kublewagon) is a lot harder to hit than a stationary King Tiger.(a whole bunch harder)

10 Sherman turret and gun stabilization. Moving fire did not bother the Sherman any where close to the effect on a German or British tank. It was not quite as easy for the Tiger tank to knock out a moving Sherman as the rules indicate ( more bias for the Krauts ???)

Well thats quite enough for now. I have tried to mention only the major deficiencies and not the manushia.

Well, or we can just go and play ASL, Ghengis

CthIngo said:

Oh, FFG surprised me, that they have already published it. As I understand it now, there are included only those original 12 map boards and a board with several obstacles.

The cost (of this Map pack) is 1/3 of the cost of the base game, hmmm! If I would like to get some replacements for missing soldiers and vehicles, I should count on rising the final cost to at least 1/2 or 2/3 cost the of base game. Maybe it would be better to buy the second copy of the base game TOI? But if I need mostly those maps and only a few figures.

Yet one more question, Cthingo: Does enhanced graphics of new map boards guarrantee better rolls (dice results)? If it would be so, than it is a must have . Otherwise it is only a matter of having a bigger table (unless you play on a floor [with more than 12 map boards])

Artemis said:

This is an undocumented feature, but yes!

I would love to see a BAR op card or something for the Americans. Not necessarily a new figure... but adding a new figure to each army would be kind of cool... actually... that would be awesome.

Ghengisgarber said:

I thought the whole point of Tide Of Iron was to abstract all this kind of crap so as to keep the game accessible to non-wargamers.

I'd actually like to see FFG get behind someone doing a TOI VASSAL module. I don't care how obscurred the card data is. This game is flat out hard to find local opponents for because it takes up a lot of room, takes a lot of time to play, and there frankly aren't a lot of folks willing to plunk down $90 for the base game. The copy on our FLGS shelves has been there for months. The copy I bought was there so long it was dusty and the box was trashed from all the people who had picked it up, looked at the price and put it back.

I certainly respect FFG's desire to protect their core game, but there's gotta be a way to facilitate online play. I wonder if they've considered getting in touch with Rodney Kinney about introducing an optional module registration element. Basically you'd fax a copy of your receipt for your FFG game to FFG and they'd issue an "online play registration code" for your game. Then you'd download the module from a unique link from FFG, and when you load the module in VASSAL it'd require your registration code each time you started it up. Those registrations/IP addresses/datetimes could be tracked and sent to FFG who could just spot check it to ensure they didn't have a rogue code.

TOI is a prime game that'd benefit from online play in the same way that ASL basically exploded their market when Rodney first released VASL.

If I wanted to play ASL, I would dig it out of my game collections. What is wrong with trying to improve the game??? Also , who died and made you the boss of Me???

Actually the game should appeal to a wide variety of players. When you appeal to only a narrow segiment, you are likely to lose players to the next latest and greatest being published. Are you trying to tell me that the game should not appeal to the experienced avid WW2 gamer???? A lot of game publishers go out of business when they lose sight of what their market really , or who buys the games??? I do not plunk down 50 bucks for a beginner game.

Well Ghengis, and Beginners do not spend 50 bucks on a game that's so complicated you need a diploma to play it, like ASL

ToI is (imho) designed as a light/mid-weight wargame that's supposed to appeal to casual gamers that do no want to dig into rules where chapters sound like "4.5.12.11.9.10 CBG for modifiers on cleaning canteens (during ABC only while XYZ)". Yes I'm exaggerating heavily here, sorry

Some of your ideas I actually quite like, though I still think many are out of scope of this game. This game is supposed to be accessible, and extended rules for (e.g.) every type of gun or ammo that has seen notable use in whatever army of this war is just not... accessible. Sometimes there has to be a compromise between complexity/realism and accessibility, and I think ToI is very good one and thereby appeals to a broad range of player types. This doesn't mean there should be no additional rules adjusting/adding certain factors of the game. So far FFG has done a good job here. I can actually see there's some kind "exceptional squad leaders" coming like you mentioned; one scenario in the Designer Series Vol 1 is about an outstanding Sergeant (I believe) and war hero defending a position or something. Don't remember the details, sorry. The scenarios from this book show how flexible the game system actually is!

This is just my opinion, no personal offense intended

Ghengisgarber said:

Dude if you don't like the level of realism/complexity OF ToI don't play it. But I think its fair to say, if you're hoping FFG are going to add rules for things like "American 50 cal MG", "various German armored cars, ie 222, 234", "Submachine guns", "Armor piercing, high explosive",
"Sherman turret and gun stabilization", then you're going to be disappointed because its not going to happen.

To answer the original question, I'm working on a scenario based on a battle in Southern France, and to portray the battle accurately, I'm going to need to add special rules for Marder IIIs, M8 self propelled howitzers, concealed armour, dried creeks and possibly two storey buildings.

I will certainly want to keep the special rules to a minimum; I think FFG have got the balance about right in adding a few new rules/vehicles to each expansion without compromising the principals of the original, which are clearly to strike a balance between "realism" and playability.

gasha1 said:

That sounds very cool. I'd be interested in something around that topic since it's sorely under-represented.

kmedlinnc said:

Thanks I hope it will be a fun scenario.

I'm basing it on a book by Jeff Danby called Day of the Panzer which is a band of brothers type factual narrative of the 3rd infantry division through Anzio and south France.

The main part of the book covers the fighting between 756th Tank battalion and L company, 3rd infantry regiment versus elements of 11th Panzer near Montelimar.

I thought it would make a great ToI scenario so I'm working on that now.

To settle the discussion, about what to use and not use, what to add and what not to add, my group has already added many features to the game to give us a more realistic and historic feel. We find that it does not detract from the flow of the game and it certainly does not put it beyond the scope of understanding of the novice. We found Tide of Iron to be a really good platform to add onto as one would desire, to accomplish a higher level of historic accuracy. We have already added several vehicles to the mix.

My writings were only as suggestions to make the game more enjoyable to other players of the game, not to attack anyones personal domain in the game.

The group that I game with are basically military historians and ex Tractics players (read frustrated Tractics players)

When a corporation or company has a brainstorming session with their employees , suggestions are brought up, written down (without critical discussion) and then the few really good suggestions are explored in more detail

I am sorry if I offended anyone in trying to make the game somewhat more enjoyable for you.

Ghengisgarber said:

Certainly not offended. I'll be adding rules myself to the scenario I'm working on.

Ghengisgarber said:

1. 50 Cal Mg. Question is: Is it good enough to warrent an extra die, or more range? Additionaly - would it improve game performance by giving more options?
2. BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) was a poor substitute for a LMG in the US army and Marines. I would consider the BARs already included as part of the squads basic firepower. Proberly the reason it has any firepower at long range at all. (same with german/british squads, just LMG instead)
3. One problem with incorporating recon in ToI, or ASL for that matter, is that we are fighting with known pieces. There are currently no hidden units, thus little real use for recon. But I agree that fights between scouting/screening forces would be a lot of fun, or could be.
4. Assault bridges, were NOT something every engeneer unit had access to. Thus it is best used as SSR.
5. SMG. Again I would say that the use of SMG is already included in the basic squad firepower, same with granades. It is simply a part of the 4+ hit ration against adjancent units.
6. Flails. I have already seen SSR making shermans mineclearing flails. Dozers could be another SSR.
   Bridgelayers were not realy that common. Thus I find that they belong in the SSR.
   Flame tanks were used to some degree by all sides in the war. Would be nice to have rules for thouse.
   Most scenarios only use a handfull of tanks or less. So there is actualy no real need to include a host of diffrent tanks for both sides.
7. Personally I think the Elites and Officer figures are just that. Individuals that have rissen above their companions. Individual heroism is further supported by several of the decks. Though Battle hardening could be a nice surprice from time to time.
8. Smoke. I would like that too. Both for tanks, antitank and mortars.
   WP. Just more smoke. Its use against infantry is of course strictly forbidden. Hmm werent flametrowers too?
   Having access to infantry slaying canister type rounds, HE and such, would screw playballance, as tanks would dominate totaly. As it is now the tanks hunts tanks and deal with hardened positions with its main gun. Infantry is handled by its Mg's. Wonderfully simple. You could designate a tank with a high firepower against infantry and low agains vehicles, thus arming it with a howitzer type gun.
9. Another little counter to indicate movement, or actualy several to remember how fast it is moving? Too much bookkeeping for my taste. Anyway, jeeps and trucks would proberly be sweapt with Mg fire, and not targeted with the main gun. Jeep might be just a bit holed. But the crew would be dead.
   It is not that easy to knock a Sherman out with a Tiger. 13 dice average 4.3 hits vs. 4 dice 1.3 hits. Leaving the sherman with heavy damage. But again, there is nothing that says that it is the effect of only one shot. It could be several.
   Targes size, is much simpler incoporated into overall armorvalue.
10. Gunstablizers were a big advantage for the crews that didn't disengage dem to avoid being knoced about by unexpected movements of the breech in relation to the floor the loader stood on. They were still move - stop - fire. They just recovered from movement a lot faster than usual. But a very nice SSR possibility!
    ToI is a game, not a simulation of the struggle against the nazi empire. Thus there is no need to feel slighted about the inferior and less varied american units. Just play the "Krauts" yourself once in a while. And remember that the germans are our allies these days.

1. for the 50 cal mg I'D give it a firepower of 6 with a range 0f 7 0r 8

2. Smg all nations, all officers and Russian assault troops fire power of 2 at adjacent hex only.

3.BAR firepower of 2 instead of one for any infantry equiped with it (max of 1 per squad) at range 4 , 1 at range 5 plus

4. Recon, would be as simple as allowing it to call in artillary even if fatigued (it could move and still call in artillary)

5. Engineer bridging, only if there is a truck, fatigued or not in the same hex , two full unsuppressed turns to build.

5a Engineer destroying a bridge, must be on the bridge to spend two full turns unsuppressed to wire it, must move off to detonate ( from adjacent hex, there must also be a truck or halftrack adjacent to the bridge. once detonated ,place a smoke marker on the bridge

We have tried these rules and they work well with no slow down in the flow of the game. We did a scenario called NO BRIDGE FOR PEIPER, a real life battle buring the BULGE . Seems like the 4th US Engineer Battalion kept blowing the bridges in his face as he raced to Secure at least one. played four games with a 50-50 outcome

6. Jeeps,Kublewagons, ARE NOT INFANTRY TRANSPORT and it never was a good use to move them in front of enemy with an MG or enemy tanks. I invision their use in the game as fast recon to get an observer into where he can call in artillery, or to get a 50 Cal MG to where it can be used as infantry support, to interdict enemy movement or to just constitute a threat. A jeep with a 50cal on op fire parked in the woods, in rough terrain on a hill top is going to have to be dealt with

7. WP willie pete was used to set burnable buildings on fire, and as a fear factor, sure it was used against infantry, only the victorious get to hold war crimes trials

8. HE of 105 and above can ring the bell on any tank (crew stunned) 150 and above caused concussions and jelly brains not to mention what it does to a tank hit on the engine grates, think marshmellow toasting time (toast em if you got em) TONGUE IN CHEEK

I actually would love to see a Howitzer cannon gun, much like the AT gun, but used for heavy bombardment.

1. That sort of firepower sounds very hard to allow Rapid fire to. Especialy when mounted on a vehicle. Not realy fun to shoot infantry from beoynd its own range.

2. Smg are already factored into 4+ and assault hits. Besides an officer should not waste his time shooting. He is supposed to Command!

3. BAR for US, and MG42 for Germans? I am not sure more firepower means better games.

4. Not a bad recon rule.

8. 150 isn't realy a tankgun though. I think 128 actualy was the largest mounted on anything like a tank. Any artillery shell actualy hitting a tank, had excelent chance of knocking the tank out. Even most mortars actualy did considerable damage to the thinner top armor.

I don't see a need for the BAR or SMG's. We already have elite infantry which can represent this pretty well. I still vote for jeeps.