Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game…. Opinions and thoughts.

By LedZep, in X-Wing

Posted at

@OP: I think I know what you're getting at. So many people said that Biggs was a must have for any Rebel squad that I was resistant to trying him out. I had seen plenty of matches where it didn't make much of a difference, and it kept the games so static because squads just rushed headlong into each other. So I purposely chose something else. And you know what? I was able to accrue a surprising number of wins, even against other lists with Biggs.

I guess what I'm saying is, I know that everybody playing the same list can be boring, but if you fly something else and consistently beat them, they're bound to come around. This goes back to what many of the other experienced (and some new) players are saying, that how you fly is more important than what you fly.

Posted at

LedZep said:

Cid_MCDP said:

LedZep said:

Hey!

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack. So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?

I think in all likelihood, you are going to see a ton of Falcons and Interceptors the next couple of months. They're the most accessible ships in Wave 2. Now, whether or not they'll stick around is another question entirely.

I think the thing that makes X-Wing inherently more playable over an extended period of time than most other miniatures games is that it does actually take some skill. If I can move and maneuver better than you can, I'm going to win unless I've got a purposely terrible list. So much of the focus in this game lies with the player and their ability to maneuver and manage their Pilot Rank- much more so than picking the right list. The more I play it, the more I stand by that remark.

I've said it on other threads around here, but folks have to get their head out of 40k and into X-Wing. The list still matters to be sure, but it doesn't matter nearly as much. You're not going to be 80% more likely to win regardless of what I've brought simply because you have a Falcon on the table. There isn't a Draigowing in X-Wing, or the equivalent of a Necron flyer list. If you end up overlapping with that Falcon every turn because you can't fly it, you're going to die. It's that simple. And you can have Interceptors with Stealth devices all you want, but it's still possible for an Rookie X-Wing to one-shot that dude. That's something I think a lot of people are forgetting or simply not realizing- there isn't going to be an Interceptor Swarm list. At least not with any decent Pilot Talents or high PR anyway like the current TIE Swarm affords. They're more expensive than TIEs, and still don't have shields, so you can't just be throwing them around willy-nilly and expect them to win.

As for what I'm excited about- new models obviously, and the potential for some really interesting builds. I'm looking forward to there not being a permanent dominant meta, and I'm looking forward to finding ways to defeat whatever the temporarily dominant meta might be.

Thats exacly what I feel. People picking up best teams and not knowing how to use them makes the game really boring.

Au contraire, mon frere! That's what makes it a blast!

Basement Dweller 1 turns up with super-hot, unbeatable, statistics-justified, point-optimized net list full of only REALLY smart choices that are so much smarter than anything YOU bring to the table, and oh, this guy does this, and oh this guy does that, this buff this, and oh they're gonna have to nerf that because it's too good, and blah, blah, blah.

You turn up with a list that works with your playstyle. A list that isn't the sexiest, hyped-up list on the face of the planet, but one that you've used several times before and is the result of looking at the strengths and weaknesses of your previous lists and addressing them.

You guys throw down, and while in theory BD1's list is super powerful, he doesn't know how to properly utilize Pilot Ranking and flubs his first attempt at Big Combo Attempt 1. As such, he has a less than significant first turn. You close in and do your thing. He makes some sacrifices to pull off Big Combo Attempt 2, and it works, but those sacrifices were comprimising to his overall big picture. You exploit those comprimises and he go to the box, you know? Two minute by himself, you know, and he feel shame. And then he get free.

Play a lot. Get better at the fundamentals that apply to everything (maneuvering and effective use of Pilot Rank) and you'll have a great shot at downing whatever the netlist du jour is with whatever you decide to put on the table. I've said it a bunch on here, and it's not because I have Alzheimer's or something- it's because I still belive in the statement: there's no unbeatable X-Wing list. Not yet, anyway. There's no Draigowing or Necron Flyer Spam list equivalent. Are there lists that are easier or more accesible to use than others? Yes, definitely. But there's no list out there that should keep you from having at least a 50-50 shot at beating the other guy once you've put all the toys on the table.

To further reinforce what Parakitor said about Biggs (which I completely agree with by the way), bear in mind forums aren't always necessarily filled with people who play the game- they're filled with people who enjoy talking about the game. Sometimes those two groups overlap and are the same people, but they aren't always. It kinda reminds me of all the posts you see on Warseer with people lamenting having time to paint then you see their post count is somewhere in the 2,000 to 3,000 range.

Want to get better at painting? Stop talking about it and do it. Shut down the browser and paint.

Want to get better at X-Wing? Similar response. :)

(Note that I have the excuse of being at work when I post, so the above doesn't apply to me. Uhhhh, yeah. :) )

Posted at

Cid_MCDP said:

LedZep said:

Cid_MCDP said:

LedZep said:

Hey!

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack. So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?

I think in all likelihood, you are going to see a ton of Falcons and Interceptors the next couple of months. They're the most accessible ships in Wave 2. Now, whether or not they'll stick around is another question entirely.

I think the thing that makes X-Wing inherently more playable over an extended period of time than most other miniatures games is that it does actually take some skill. If I can move and maneuver better than you can, I'm going to win unless I've got a purposely terrible list. So much of the focus in this game lies with the player and their ability to maneuver and manage their Pilot Rank- much more so than picking the right list. The more I play it, the more I stand by that remark.

I've said it on other threads around here, but folks have to get their head out of 40k and into X-Wing. The list still matters to be sure, but it doesn't matter nearly as much. You're not going to be 80% more likely to win regardless of what I've brought simply because you have a Falcon on the table. There isn't a Draigowing in X-Wing, or the equivalent of a Necron flyer list. If you end up overlapping with that Falcon every turn because you can't fly it, you're going to die. It's that simple. And you can have Interceptors with Stealth devices all you want, but it's still possible for an Rookie X-Wing to one-shot that dude. That's something I think a lot of people are forgetting or simply not realizing- there isn't going to be an Interceptor Swarm list. At least not with any decent Pilot Talents or high PR anyway like the current TIE Swarm affords. They're more expensive than TIEs, and still don't have shields, so you can't just be throwing them around willy-nilly and expect them to win.

As for what I'm excited about- new models obviously, and the potential for some really interesting builds. I'm looking forward to there not being a permanent dominant meta, and I'm looking forward to finding ways to defeat whatever the temporarily dominant meta might be.

Thats exacly what I feel. People picking up best teams and not knowing how to use them makes the game really boring.

Au contraire, mon frere! That's what makes it a blast!

Basement Dweller 1 turns up with super-hot, unbeatable, statistics-justified, point-optimized net list full of only REALLY smart choices that are so much smarter than anything YOU bring to the table, and oh, this guy does this, and oh this guy does that, this buff this, and oh they're gonna have to nerf that because it's too good, and blah, blah, blah.

You turn up with a list that works with your playstyle. A list that isn't the sexiest, hyped-up list on the face of the planet, but one that you've used several times before and is the result of looking at the strengths and weaknesses of your previous lists and addressing them.

You guys throw down, and while in theory BD1's list is super powerful, he doesn't know how to properly utilize Pilot Ranking and flubs his first attempt at Big Combo Attempt 1. As such, he has a less than significant first turn. You close in and do your thing. He makes some sacrifices to pull off Big Combo Attempt 2, and it works, but those sacrifices were comprimising to his overall big picture. You exploit those comprimises and he go to the box, you know? Two minute by himself, you know, and he feel shame. And then he get free.

Play a lot. Get better at the fundamentals that apply to everything (maneuvering and effective use of Pilot Rank) and you'll have a great shot at downing whatever the netlist du jour is with whatever you decide to put on the table. I've said it a bunch on here, and it's not because I have Alzheimer's or something- it's because I still belive in the statement: there's no unbeatable X-Wing list. Not yet, anyway. There's no Draigowing or Necron Flyer Spam list equivalent. Are there lists that are easier or more accesible to use than others? Yes, definitely. But there's no list out there that should keep you from having at least a 50-50 shot at beating the other guy once you've put all the toys on the table.

To further reinforce what Parakitor said about Biggs (which I completely agree with by the way), bear in mind forums aren't always necessarily filled with people who play the game- they're filled with people who enjoy talking about the game. Sometimes those two groups overlap and are the same people, but they aren't always. It kinda reminds me of all the posts you see on Warseer with people lamenting having time to paint then you see their post count is somewhere in the 2,000 to 3,000 range.

Want to get better at painting? Stop talking about it and do it. Shut down the browser and paint.

Want to get better at X-Wing? Similar response. :)

(Note that I have the excuse of being at work when I post, so the above doesn't apply to me. Uhhhh, yeah. :) )

Hahahahah yea. True true.

Posted at

Cid_MCDP said:

Au contraire, mon frere! That's what makes it a blast!

Basement Dweller 1 turns up with super-hot, unbeatable, statistics-justified, point-optimized net list full of only REALLY smart choices that are so much smarter than anything YOU bring to the table, and oh, this guy does this, and oh this guy does that, this buff this, and oh they're gonna have to nerf that because it's too good, and blah, blah, blah.

You turn up with a list that works with your playstyle. A list that isn't the sexiest, hyped-up list on the face of the planet, but one that you've used several times before and is the result of looking at the strengths and weaknesses of your previous lists and addressing them.

You guys throw down, and while in theory BD1's list is super powerful, he doesn't know how to properly utilize Pilot Ranking and flubs his first attempt at Big Combo Attempt 1. As such, he has a less than significant first turn. You close in and do your thing. He makes some sacrifices to pull off Big Combo Attempt 2, and it works, but those sacrifices were comprimising to his overall big picture. You exploit those comprimises and he go to the box, you know? Two minute by himself, you know, and he feel shame. And then he get free.

Play a lot. Get better at the fundamentals that apply to everything (maneuvering and effective use of Pilot Rank) and you'll have a great shot at downing whatever the netlist du jour is with whatever you decide to put on the table. I've said it a bunch on here, and it's not because I have Alzheimer's or something- it's because I still belive in the statement: there's no unbeatable X-Wing list. Not yet, anyway. There's no Draigowing or Necron Flyer Spam list equivalent. Are there lists that are easier or more accesible to use than others? Yes, definitely. But there's no list out there that should keep you from having at least a 50-50 shot at beating the other guy once you've put all the toys on the table.

To further reinforce what Parakitor said about Biggs (which I completely agree with by the way), bear in mind forums aren't always necessarily filled with people who play the game- they're filled with people who enjoy talking about the game. Sometimes those two groups overlap and are the same people, but they aren't always. It kinda reminds me of all the posts you see on Warseer with people lamenting having time to paint then you see their post count is somewhere in the 2,000 to 3,000 range.

Want to get better at painting? Stop talking about it and do it. Shut down the browser and paint.

Want to get better at X-Wing? Similar response. :)

(Note that I have the excuse of being at work when I post, so the above doesn't apply to me. Uhhhh, yeah. :) )

That is all and dandy until basement dweller 1 turns up and actually has played his list and is 80-90% as proficient as you and his list is "more" powerful vs your particular list.

Yes I agree with you that movement and understanding the game certainly is a skill, one that has to be practicedm modified for your style to a degree.

Completely disagree that those skills alone will make up for a poor list vs what ever you are facing, unless the skill difference is pretty great (like in your example).

Check out the picasso artwork thread… Looks like some expirenced players are trying to find a way to defeat a Wave 3 Rebel list and are having some trouble.

I do think overall FFG did a good job balancing the game, where the flexibility you describe can work, but if all other things are equal… the lists do matter. Since skill/luck are never equal, the factor is how much is the difference is and is it big enough to off-set any list weakness you may or may not have.

Posted at

dandirk said:

Cid_MCDP said:

Au contraire, mon frere! That's what makes it a blast!

Basement Dweller 1 turns up with super-hot, unbeatable, statistics-justified, point-optimized net list full of only REALLY smart choices that are so much smarter than anything YOU bring to the table, and oh, this guy does this, and oh this guy does that, this buff this, and oh they're gonna have to nerf that because it's too good, and blah, blah, blah.

You turn up with a list that works with your playstyle. A list that isn't the sexiest, hyped-up list on the face of the planet, but one that you've used several times before and is the result of looking at the strengths and weaknesses of your previous lists and addressing them.

You guys throw down, and while in theory BD1's list is super powerful, he doesn't know how to properly utilize Pilot Ranking and flubs his first attempt at Big Combo Attempt 1. As such, he has a less than significant first turn. You close in and do your thing. He makes some sacrifices to pull off Big Combo Attempt 2, and it works, but those sacrifices were comprimising to his overall big picture. You exploit those comprimises and he go to the box, you know? Two minute by himself, you know, and he feel shame. And then he get free.

Play a lot. Get better at the fundamentals that apply to everything (maneuvering and effective use of Pilot Rank) and you'll have a great shot at downing whatever the netlist du jour is with whatever you decide to put on the table. I've said it a bunch on here, and it's not because I have Alzheimer's or something- it's because I still belive in the statement: there's no unbeatable X-Wing list. Not yet, anyway. There's no Draigowing or Necron Flyer Spam list equivalent. Are there lists that are easier or more accesible to use than others? Yes, definitely. But there's no list out there that should keep you from having at least a 50-50 shot at beating the other guy once you've put all the toys on the table.

To further reinforce what Parakitor said about Biggs (which I completely agree with by the way), bear in mind forums aren't always necessarily filled with people who play the game- they're filled with people who enjoy talking about the game. Sometimes those two groups overlap and are the same people, but they aren't always. It kinda reminds me of all the posts you see on Warseer with people lamenting having time to paint then you see their post count is somewhere in the 2,000 to 3,000 range.

Want to get better at painting? Stop talking about it and do it. Shut down the browser and paint.

Want to get better at X-Wing? Similar response. :)

(Note that I have the excuse of being at work when I post, so the above doesn't apply to me. Uhhhh, yeah. :) )

That is all and dandy until basement dweller 1 turns up and actually has played his list and is 80-90% as proficient as you and his list is "more" powerful vs your particular list.

Yes I agree with you that movement and understanding the game certainly is a skill, one that has to be practicedm modified for your style to a degree.

Completely disagree that those skills alone will make up for a poor list vs what ever you are facing, unless the skill difference is pretty great (like in your example).

Check out the picasso artwork thread… Looks like some expirenced players are trying to find a way to defeat a Wave 3 Rebel list and are having some trouble.

I do think overall FFG did a good job balancing the game, where the flexibility you describe can work, but if all other things are equal… the lists do matter. Since skill/luck are never equal, the factor is how much is the difference is and is it big enough to off-set any list weakness you may or may not have.

I never said that being good at maneuvering movement and PR management will make up for a purposely bad list, and yes, all things being the same players of equal skill in other words, of course the better list is going to win. I don't think I've ever given the impression that wasn't the case? I've made the above statement on the forums several times and I don't think anyone has ever taken it to mean that. Maybe I worded it poorly this time.

My point is, and has always been the other times I've made the statement, this- this game isn't won or lost in the listbuilding phase before the game is ever even played. I think the VAST majority of players and viewers of this forum would be better off playing this game than spending a bunch of time trying to search out lists and wring every single point of optimization out of them. Now, yes, at some point down the road when folks become really, really good at the fundamentals is there something to be gained by searching out lists and wringing points? Of course! The point is it isn't after you play this game a handful of times. It'd be like trying to teach someone a flop shot in golf when they still can't even chip, putt, drive, or hit an iron from the fairway.

I've seen the Picasso thread, it still requires you to be able to move and maneuver a Falcon-sized base. I have no idea about your experiences with this game, and specifically that ship, but me personally- I've never played with a Falcon. I'm not at all confident I could move or maneuver one effectively. Perhaps you can, but I doubt most folks on here can, I'm virtually assured the causal players of this game could not simply pick one up and roll with it and be successful against somebody playing a not horrible list that was well acquainted with it and moving it.

So, could a Hothie wreak havoc with that Picasso list? Or some of the other forum heavyweights that are also extremely solid on the fundamental aspects of this game? Yeah. I'm sure they can, or possibly will. Can most of the people on here? Not right now, no. I don't think they can, me included. As nasty as that list is, if you can't fly it without running into a bunch of stuff, I don't think it's going to work against a player of similar skill level who is more familiar with a non-Picasso artwork list. And I still think if you adopted and learned this game by using a Swarm, it would take some time to re-learn playing with such a small list as the artwork list.

And FWIW, most of the basement dwellers I deal with talk a great game, but play too many different games to actually be any good at any particular one of them. Your mileage may vary. :)

Posted at

To address the original point, haven't we been playing with the same ships and upgrades for months now? So what if people start only playing with newer ships and upgrades?

Besides, I think the Falcon -- combined (hopefully) with the presence of more core sets -- will bring more people to the game. And that will hardly ruin things.

Posted at

My solution to this is not to try and think of this in a Tournament Setting. Instead, just play with what you like. The biggest issue I have had in mini gaming is that eventually you come to a single, optimal build that wins wins wins, and you never look back. It takes the variety away from things.

Side note: If you are a tourney player, then your experience is pretty much the opposite….and there is nothing wrong with that at all!

I don't see this wave as breaking the game, rather it giving you much more options to play with in this little corner of the universe. Players will constantly be tinkering with ideas and combinations to see what does and doesn't work. That's what makes the game fun!