So I played my first game last night against a friend of mine. I was fairly familiar with the rules, while he was not. The purpose was the provide an experience and instruct him in the basics. That mission was accomplished easily, and he loved the game, which promises there to be more games.

He is a pretty competitive player, so I expect him to do well. My own list seemed to work well, but I'm looking for some feedback.

Last night I fielded:

Vader (29); Squad Leader (2); Cluster Missiles (4) = 35

Howlrunner (18); Swarm Tactics (2) = 20

Mauler Mithel (17)

Backstabber (16)

Academy Pilot (12)

With 4 "good" pilots on the board plus my academy pilot, I did well, but I noticed I never once used squad leader. Now this is perhaps just anecdotal and it could be really useful I suppose, and I've already debated taking out Cluster and putting in Concussion missiles.

I tend to play a pretty aggressive style, trying to close the distance quickly. I have 2 other tie fighter models that I could field if need be.

On the flip side, I'd like to be able to play Rebels occasionally and I have just a few models so that people can just play. I've only got 2 x-wings (core and expansion) and a y-wing to work with until wave 2 hits, but I'd like some feedback on this as well.

I haven't actually played it yet, and to be honest, I'm not even sure the best strategy for it as my instincts once again are to see the whites of their eyes, and that seems to play out poorly when outnumbered.

The Rebel list I came up with was:

Wedge (29); R5-D8 (3); Proton Torpedoes (4) = 36

Biggs (25); R2-D2 (4) = 29

Dutch (23); R5-K6 (2); Ion Cannon Turret (5); Proton Torpedoes (4) = 34

The idea was that Dutch would lock something, pass a lock to wedge, and then hopefully As Dutch uses his lock he'll get another one so that he can keep passing it to Wedge. Biggs draws fire and repairs shields with R2, Wedge murders stuff and can if need be repair himself with R5-K6, Dutch should be reasonably tough with 8 HP, and can Ion Turret things as need be.

Imperials are definitely my priority, but It'd be nice to know I can play both So any and all help is appreciated.

Many Thanks!

With Wave 2 "Shipping Now", all this listbuilding theory is probably going to get turned on its head, but from a Wave 1 perspective…

Your Imperial list is pretty solid. If you didn't get much use out of Squad Leader on Vader, maybe try something else on him like Swarm Tactics or Expert Handling. Or save the points entirely and stick Expert Handling on Mithel perhaps.

Clusters v Concussions largely boils down to what Range you find yourself wanting to fire missiles as when you do the math (as others on here have- I'm too lazy), there's really not a tremendous amount of difference between the two at the end of the day (though from what I remember, Concussions actually do a teensy bit more damage on average statistically). If you found yourself wishing for a better attack at Range 3, get the Concussions. If you found he was flying a problematic Y-Wing or is already talking about buying a Falcon, consider Clusters as they work more effectively against ships with 1 Defense die. If neither of those things apply, flip a coin.

Your Rebel list, I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of 3 ship Rebel lists in Wave 1, but I know there are people out there who swear by them. I mention this largely to say I don't have much experience with actually running one, than to come off like a passive aggressive ******. Long story long, take this part for what it's worth, and let me say in advance, nothing in that list screams "Oh NOOOOES!" to me. It's fine the way it is.

R5-D8 on Wedge isn't a bad idea, but as you've got (ideally) Biggs tanking for him, consider using R2-D2 on Wedge as ostensibly he shouldn't be subject to more than a few shots anyway (hopefully just resulting in the loss of a shield point or two per round which R2-D2 gives back in the next turn) and is only 1 points more than R5-D8. Of course, you've got R2-D2 on Biggs, so now we need to find him a new backseat driver. I like using R2-F2 on Biggs because I often see Biggs get too overwhelmed by focused fire to give R2-D2 a chance to do his shield regeneration magic. Sure, R2-F2 requires an Action, but a 3 Defense X-Wing isn't to be disregarded and it happens before anyone starts shooting at him (again- unlike R2-D2 in which you have to survive the current round to benefit from his ability), and hopefully as you mentioned, you've got Dutch dishing him a Target Lock every round which helps mitigate the spending of Biggs' Action on R2-F2's ability. As for Dutch, you've got him pretty well nailed I think. Main thing with him is to put that Ion Cannon Turret in range so you can acquire Target Locks and spend them without regard to arc of fire in either case.

Running this would look like…

Wedge + R2-D2

Biggs + R2-F2

Dutch + Ion Cannon Turret + Proton Torpedoes

… and land you at 93 points. Plenty left to give Dutch a damage mitigation droid and possibly give Wedge back the Proton Torpedoes I've so callously stripped from him, or better yet keep the Torps off and give him Swarm Tactics and pass that PR9 on to one of the boys. You're gonna have to fly them tight regardless for this to work- might as well benefit from it as much as you can.

Good luck and have fun!

I really appreciate the feedback!

I was pretty happy with how the Imperials played, so I like the way you phrased your tweaks. He does run a Y-Wing right now. Last game he played Horton Salm, but was largely inneffective with him.

I was able to use Vader's cluster missiles to get through his shields and 1 into his armor and then Mithel was able to get a crit on him that caused him to take a stress token that he had to burn off. I know for a fact he wants to get a Falcon, so maybe there is value in keeping those missiles.

With wave 2 so close I know it could be a moot point in many ways. I'm excited to work Soontir Fel into my list some where, and I'm thinking I should probably pair him up with at least 1 other interceptor.

I'm actually less excited for Slave 1, although some of the cards hold incredible interest, so I will be getting one. I'll have to see how he plays.

What would you suggest for a Rebel build since you don't like 3 ship builds. I'm guessing more rookies or some gold/grey squad boys?

I can't say I blame you. I've found 3-ship rebs pretty underwhelming, especially because it's just so easy for Imps to bring so much to the table that weight of fire seems to carry the day.

Right-Titan said:

Hey, no problem. If you want to thank me, stop by my X-Wing site and check out some of the articles I've got up or better yet, uh, I'm not supposed to come right out and say it, but well, it rhymes with "Pick on the lads".

Ok, so the reason I personally favor 4 ships over 3 in a Rebel list is because of the 100 point limit. If more Rebels could take Elite Pilot skills, I would probably be a fan of a 3-ship build, but as it is, to run a three ship list and come anywhere near 100 points, you've got to take Wedge and/ or Luke, then fill in the blanks with a bunch of guys who can only take droids or torps and frankly droids and torps aren't quite worth it in my book in this context when paired against the alternative of using 4 ships at 100 points.

Did that make any sense whatsoever?

So the list I've had the most success with is a boring as paint 4 X-Wing list that goes like this-

Luke Skywalker + Swarm Tactics + R2-F2

Red Squadron Pilot

Red Squadron Pilot

Rookie Pilot

There's nothing special or tricky about this list at all. I split the squadron into two 2-ship pieces (one with Luke and Rookie, the other being the two Red Squadron Pilots) and deploy basically in each corner of my deployment zone, pointed towards the center of the board (their bases are not square to the forward deployment line, in other words). First turn I maneuver Luke a little ahead of the Rookie and one of the Reds a little ahead of the other, then I keep that formation as I fly towards the TIEs. The forward ship tries to get a hull or two off of whoever he's firing at and ideally, the trailing ship finishes them off. Luke sometimes uses his Action to activate R2-F2's ability, sometimes just Focuses or Target Locks, and always passes Swarm Tactics to the Rookie behind him.

The Imperial player kind of has to decide whether to slow down and let the ships converge on him, split up a bit, or send the entire swarm after one of the groups. In any case, it tends to break them out of their normal routine, which of course is the whole point. 1 X-Wing versus 1 TIE goes to the X-Wing. Hell, if I've got full shields and the guy across from me isn't an X-Wing Miniatures genius, I'll say 1 X-Wing versus 2 TIEs still favors the X-Wing and that's why it works- 6 or 7 TIEs with re-rolls and PR8 or 9 against 3 or 4 Rebel ships? Yeah, that's favoring Imperials, but if you can break that group down, remove some of those re-rolls, remove some of that high PR, now you've got something you can deal with. And by deal with I mean like, dealt with.

This brings up what I really wanted to mention here- lists aren't as important in this game as knowing how to use what works for you. It wasn't until the last round of the Kessel Run Tournament that I finally really understood that. This game isn't 40k- you're not going to find yourself 80% more likely to win than the guy across the table because you brought the equivalent of the Necron Flyer list and he brought Tau. There is no Necron Flyer list in X-Wing. There are lists, pilots, and upgrades that are easier or more accessible for the beginner to use effectively to be sure, but you've still got maneuver that list and you've still got to use everyone's Pilot Rank to win.

My advice is this- play the list you want to play and pay attention to what works for you, what doesn't work for you, and where your needs lie. Address those three things as you continue to get better at maneuvering and utilizing Pilot Rank and you'll get better faster than if you try and figure out the best, most optimized for the points X-Wing list. You'll likely find that those things will change over time as your skillset evolves. That's where the constant tweaks come in, which keeps the game interesting. Do you need Squad Leader? Where else could those points be used? Have you played three games and not used R2-F2's Action once? Where could those points be better spent? That's what keeps me engaged. Well, that and the fact the guy I usually play with has been making me play Imperials for the last month and a half.

And when tweaking gets boring, you can try crazy one-off stuff like…

Horton Salm + R2-D2 + Proton Torpedoes + Proton Torpedoes

Rookie Pilot

Gold Squadron Pilot

Green Squadron Pilot

… and crack up if/ when you actually get it to work. Sometimes just the look on your opponent's face is worth as much as a win.

Thanks again for your candor.

I totally got what you were saying in regards to a 4 ship list vs the 3 ship list. Makes a lot of sense actually. My experience thus far has been with a 3 ship unit that flies generally towards the enemy. The problem with 1 three ship unit, which I'm sure you appreciate, based on your comments, is that it does nothing to really change the landscape for the enemy. They see your three ships and fly as many ties at it as possible. I like your suggestion as it offers two targets to choose from which means that you will either focus fire one, while the other is coming up out of your firing arc.

You are correct in assuming that I come from a 40k background, which is obviously an entirely different beast.

I do like my TIEs, but there is that part of you that just itches and wants to be the good guy saving everyone from galactic tyranny.

I'm excited to see what comes out of Wave 2, and how it changes things, and then to build something with the new interceptors.

Assuming the link in your signiature is the site you were referencing, I've been there a few times already and will continue to do so.

Right-Titan said:

For what it's worth, I've had Squad Leader on Vader in 2 or 3 games and my experience has been the same as yours . For the same point cost, I think it's hard to argue with a second Swarm Tactics. You could also take those two points and use them to transmute Mithel and the Academy Pilot into Dark Curse and Night Beast--I feel like their abilities are more consistently useful.

While I often like Cid's commentary (and I second the recommendation for The Metal Bikini, if anyone is on the fence about visiting), I do have to disagree with him about Cluster Missiles: he's right that the difference is never enormous, but Concussion Missiles are consistently better. They're more likely to hit, and have higher average damage. IMO there's also a lot of value in doing damage now instead of damage later , which is a tactical consideration that puts even more weight on Concussion Missiles.

Where your Rebels are concerned, I'm generally a fan of 4-ship builds instead, but I've had my head handed to me quite neatly by a 3-ship list that looked a lot like yours. I don't like R5-D8 very well, though--I think you're actually better off with a generic R5, since although it's less effective it doesn't take up your action. I'd swap it out for an R2 or R5 and Swarm Tactics, put R2-F2 on Biggs, and take it for a spin.

But I do want to echo Cid's comment that while list balance is a factor in play, your skill is at least as important. It's not 40k and it's also not Magic, where this deck beats that deck nine times in ten; it's certainly not hard to build a bad list, but it's also pretty easy to spot one. Good flying and solid tactical decisions have a substantial effect on the outcome, and lists mostly make a difference at the margin when players are otherwise well-matched.

Right-Titan said:

I like playing both factions, but as I've had the Alliance "firebird" tattooed on my chest since 1994, it's not hard to figure out who I fly for most of the time.

Vorpal Sword said:

Errbuddy be hatin' on Cluster Missiles. You don't know Cluster Missiles! Don't you be listenin' to them fools, Cluster Missiles- they jealous.

Seriously though, thanks for the kind words, Vorpal. And thanks for the plug on the Team Covenant site too! Mucho appreciado!

Oh, and I didn't steal your article ideas baby, I was just borrowing them and forgot to bring them back. That's my bad, dig? Next time I'm in Tulsa, I'll drop 'em off.

Years ago 40k was my first love. Because I'm a bad person, I loved her and left, only to fall in love with her again relatively recently. However I too now have a toddler at home which curtails hobby time rather badly.

I was so impressed with myself for managing to find time to build my board and asteroids lol…

One thing I love about this game is the fact that there is no "perfect" list. You are absolutely right that there are bad lists out there, but by the same token, next to nothing is totally unworkable.

I think I've read everything on your site now… you need more content lol! I'm pretty new but if you're ever looking for "guest contributions" let me know. I love writing this sort of stuff.

I'm really looking forward to "The Next Big Thing" i.e. Wave 2

I've got a force of TIEs I'm comfortable with, but those interceptors are jazzy, and the more I read about Turr Phennir, the bigger my man-crush on him.

I think some of the upgrades in wave 2 are going to have some excellent and really interesting combos with some of the existing line up as well. There's some very cool synergies between things like Dark Curse and Stealth, Vader with Deadeye, or maybe a Mauler Mithel with expose, rolling 5 dice at range 1, yikes.

Cid_MCDP said:

You make some really good points. I use a 3-ship build that has stomped many a squad. It used to be:

Wedge Antilles (R2 Astromech, Expert Handling, Proton Torpedoes)
Horton Salm (R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret, Proton Torpedoes, Proton Torpedoes)
Rookie Pilot (R2-D2)

Back then, I had trouble flying in formation (still do, a little) so I was loathe to take Biggs to the table. But I realized that most of my matches are 60 minutes, and that just isn't enough time for last-man-standing Rookie to slowly whittle down the opponent while he regenerates shields. So I had to switch it up:

Wedge Antilles (R2 Astromech, Expert Handling, Proton Torpedoes)
Horton Salm (R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret, Proton Torpedoes, Proton Torpedoes)
Biggs Darklighter

This allowed me to rush into the enemy for some early damage, and then we break off into all sorts of crazy maneuvers. I try to keep Biggs close to Wedge as much as possible. Sometimes I split them up to lure my opponents into an attack on Wedge, then surprise them with a crazy maneuver that forces Biggs into their firing arc. This is always good fun because when they see Wedge on his lonesome they dive into Range 1 head-to-head combat, but then they don't even get to take that Range 1 shot at Wedge…but Wedge still does

Preferences really do change quite a bit, and it's fun to see how my squad building reflects that.

[Just as an aside, my favorite 4-ship Rebel build is Wedge, Biggs and 2 Gold Squadron Pilots with ion cannons. So fun!]

I like your Wedge, Biggs and Horton list… looks fun, but your 4 ship build with the two ion y-wings looks like it could cause some hilarity. Especially as the meta seems to move away from a swarm. Even against a pseudo-swarm list where theres a lot of named regular TIEs, it could do pretty well as long as you can ion some of the nastier guys.

I was goofing off during my lunch break and thought these might be fun for some Wave2/1 hybridization.

Turr Phennir & Co.

Turr Phennir (Push the Limit) - 28

Mauler Mithel (Expose) - 21

Dark Curse (Stealth Device) - 19

Avenger Squadron Pilot - 20

Academy Pilot - 12

Gives you 5 ships on the board, Turr and Dark Curse are tough to kill (in theory) and Turr and Mauler would both melt face at close range. I see Mauler getting annihilated often if he can't stay out of arcs as assuming he uses Expose to hit with 5 dice at range 1, he'd potentially get focused with only 2 defence dice. I suppose if you can keep him out of sight or hidden behind an asteroid or something it could work out though. It's all in the usage right

Boba & The Boyz

Boba Fett (Heavy Laser Cannon, Expose, Mercenary Co-Pilot, Stealth Device, Slave-1) - 52

Academy Pilot - 12

Academy Pilot - 12

Academy Pilot - 12

Academy Pilot - 12

Still gives you 5 ships, Boba does the heavy lifting, with 3 agility until he does get hit, and then still has 2, with 10 HP. He hits with 4 dice at range 2-3 using the Heavy Laser Cannon, and lets you turn one of the crits you just got rid of back into a crit, or gives you one, which against hard targets with low agility (Y-Wings, Falcons) should be pretty effective. If you do get close enough, then you hit 'em with your primary attack with expose and roll 5 dice turning one into a crit thanks to the co-pilot.

Academy pilots are there to get bodies in the air. They give you some weight of fire, attacking together and killing things (hopefully) under weight of fire. Move them in blocks of two but close together.

Boba & The Boyz Mark 2

Boba Fett (Heavy Laser Cannon, Mercenary Co-Pilot, Slave-1) - 48

Mauler Mithel (Expose) - 21

Dark Curse (Stealth Device) - 19

Academy Pilot - 12

4 Ships in this one, scaled back Boba a bit, Dark Curse and Mauler Mithel and the Academy Pilot come back from Turr's list

Just some fun stuff for me to try when I can get my hands on the models….

Right-Titan said:

More content, he says! The site's only been up three-and-a-half weeks, I got a 50 hour a week job, a wife that works weekends at the hospital, a two-and-a-half year old, and a 6 month old and this dude says, "More content."

If you're serious about writing for TMB.com sometime, mail me through the site and we'll talk about it.

I haven't looked at Wave 2 much other than the discussions (especially Parakitor's thread about combining Wave 1 and Wave 2) on here to be completely honest- it wasn't by design, or to try and surprise myself once I got the new stuff in my hands like Christmas morning, I just really haven't had time. There are a couple of things that have jumped out at me, but I've not dissected it like I did with Wave 1.

That'll come though- I'm going to start working on the Wave 2 breakdowns for TMB.com probably Sunday.

I'm really excited about the synergy between Wave 1 and Wave 2 stuff. I think folks sometime forget that Wave 2 was supposed to come just a couple of months after Wave 1. As such, I'm hoping that some of the lesser used Wave 1 ships and upgrades realize their full potential once Wave 2 is in play. I still want to figure out something that makes Maarek useful!

Parakitor said:

Thanks man!

Now that Regionals dates have been released, I was kind of looking ahead and wondering what I'd try to roll. Subsequently, I found myself wondering what other people would probably be rolling. I came to the conclusion that there's going to be several equally viable builds, and again- just my opinion, I don't think there's going to be a dominant meta.

Through March and April, I think you're going to see a TON of folks rolling Falcons for the Rebels and Interceptors for the Imps. I've said it a couple of times on here, but I don't think those ships are necessarily better, just more accessible and straightforward in their use. As those become prevalent, folks are going to naturally find ways to mitigate those builds using other builds, and long story short (well, shorter anyway), by the time Regionals rolls around, there's going to be all kinds of builds out there.

So drawing that conclusion, I decided I'm just going to pick some build that will be 1) fun to play, 2) utilize the models I aesthteically enjoy playing with, 3) is a fun build to fly, which brings me back to my original point and the one you commented on-

1. Play your list.
2. Address the holes in it.
3. Play it some more.

Second verse, same as the first, wash, rinse, repeat, and all that.

lol… I get it… my daughter will be 2 in less than a month, and I work a pretty busy job too. At any rate, I've been fooling around with some proxies for the models and lists I'm thinking through at the moment.

Some of the wave 2 ships and cards are pretty great… Turr Phennir for instance, with a move of 5 plus boost of 1, then attack, barrel roll and boost of 1 again using Push the Limit means that you can effectively move over 16 inches. Even taking the barrel roll and second boost, which is just to get you out of the firing arc of your enemies, it's incredibly easy to attack from well outside of range 3 and into their face at range 1 in one turn and potentially (and in many cases probably) escape retribution.

If you pair him with Soontir with PR9 with ellusiveness and a stealth device, you run the two together, they can tag team something at PR9 and PR7, Turr Phennir can follow up his attack by dodging out of the way and Soontir with an evade token can force an enemy to re-roll one of his hit dice, giving you a focus token as well. Then you can roll your 4 defence dice, with a focus token in hand and an evade token - odds are pretty good he'll be sticking around even if you manage to not remove your attacker with the 8 attack dice you'll be rolling.

If you can manage to get someone like Mauler Mithel with or without Expose, you're rolling another 4 or 5 attack dice at range 1.

Muy Caliente!

At any rate… I'm not sure what exactly I want to roll when the time comes… Boba or Kath in a Firespray seem pretty cool, but it's hard to field more than 3 ships unless you want to run just a lot of basic pilots with it.

Some more Wave 2/1 Mixing… more of a variation of the Turr Phennir List

Turr Phennir (25), Push The Limit (3) = 28

Mauler Mithel (17), Expose (4), Engine Upgrade (4) = 25

Dark Curse (16), Stealth Device (3) = 19

Backstabber (16)

Academy Pilot (12)

Similar to the other one. Instead of running Phennir with an Avenger Squadron pilot in support, you run him with the more powerful at close range Mauler.

In theory you should be able to Move up 5, Boost 1 with both into range 1 from outside targetting range. Roll 5 dice with Mauler, and 4 dice with Phennir, then juke out of the way with Phennir. It leaves Mithel kind of high and dry if you don't nuke whatever it was you attacked, so I'm not convinced it's a great trade off, because if your opponent is flying with one ship in support of another, or you fail to eliminate the target, you'll only roll 2 dice in defence, and 1 if it's Wedge. There is a solid chance that you have just traded off Mauler for whatever Rebel you may or may not have killed.

Still, if you can get them into a good spot, they certainly will inspire some fear. And that could be worth some lulz.