IMHO Rex is seriously underrated. IMO, he's actually quite broken and is one of the best, most powerful investigator. First of all, he starts with the most random stuff: 1 common, 2 unique, 2 spell, 1 skill. 3$ and 3 clue tokens are nice, too. Second, his ability is beyond broken, with his ability to gain an extra clue token whenever clue tokens are gained. The first time I played with him I got 8 clue tokens by turn 2. Curse? don't make me laugh. All you need is one gate trophy and its gone. And with all the clue tokens he have even with the curse its very easy to kill monsters and close a gate until he gets blessed.

So, inconclusin, IMO not only Rex is not bad IMO, he's actually too good. Thoughts?

Rex shouldn't really be doing anything substantial until someone else buys him a Bless to get rid of his curse. But seriously, it's not that big of a deal.

Lily is perhaps the most over valued investigator in the game. Even as printed, she's just not that good. And you have people frothing at the moth about how she breaks the whole game or something.

-Frank

I think Lily is kinda bad, because she starts the game with virtually nothing.

heh both of that investigators are my favorite :] rex with his starting possesions and clue token skill, and lily with self healing stamina sanity and fight +6 for only hands using. Imo they are way overpowered if you compare them to someone like bob jenkins for example....

scovron said:

Whaaa? Lay off the crazy sauce. Bob has decent luck. He has *great* fight/will, and good speed. He has a decent amount of sanity and his ability is very good (as it amplifies the effectiveness of shopping, and makes it easier for you to avoid draws where there's nothing you want and you have to buy an overpriced unhelpful item). Seriously, three or four turns with him at the common item store is usually well spent. ::Shrug:: but even without his ability his basic stats are strong, and his starting equipment and cash is good. Granted, I would probably prefer drawing Rex over Bob, but honestly, I'd be happier drawing Bob than Lily.

http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Image:BobJenkins.png

Every character is great in their own rite, but Mary has underrepresented starting gear and should start with something else, Daisy's spell ability alone is too powerful as written, and Wendy shouldn't be able to get deputised. Other than these three things, I think every character is balanced.

Provided, of course, that Lily can't heal 2 points by moving her slider 2 spaces in one round. I just played Lily with the 1 point limit, and she was doing her job well: killing monsters, and sealing one gate when she could. She came dangerously close to being insane once, where she had to have someone else fight monsters instead of her for that round.

Well, I'm looking over the latest Arkham statistics reports to try to answer this and scrolling through the most popular investigators portion. Most Underrated IMO goes to Marie Lambeau. She's sitting at number 24 out of 32, and deserves to be higher up. For me, what I like best about Marie is the sheer potential for complete awesomeness. With great will and the 3rd eye, there are so many ways this could go right! Marie with Wither and 2 1-h weapons turns her into a powerhouse. Another fantastic setup is Storm of Spirits, which allows her to max her will, doesn't cost her sanity, and still get lots of dice for combat checks, this pairs perfect with the enchanted knife she starts with. Another wonderful combo is the knife and Calling the Azure flame. Calling the Azure flame is easy to cast for Marie (big plus there), it costs sanity, but pairs *amazing* with the knife. +7 to combat checks and 6's are 2 sucessess, yes please. In a similar vein, a shotgun and wither works much the same way. Marie's offensive potential rivals the best of the best. Not only that, but she comes built-in with Witch blood, giving you some more precious time to make that final seal, or should the worst come of it, a host of 'free' successes in final combat! Marie is a favorite of mine and definitely is the most underrated in my book, so much better than Mark Harrigan (#21) and Vincent Lee (#20).

Jackie is also underrated. She sits at a respectable #15, but her ability to redraw the mythos card can be a game winner (or saver, anyway). Jackie can reduce the odds of Act3 or gate bursts to near nothing, and allow you to avoid some particularly nasty rumors. She also starts with respectable tanking potential with 7 sanity, 3 stam, and enchanted jewelry.

Let's talk about overrated. Dexter Drake takes most overrated. Don't get me wrong, I heart Dexter Drake. I really do. But he's not #4, not by a long shot. Dexter is simply sub-par in the base game, although he gets better with each expansion added, as there become spells that are worth searching for. Even so, Dexter is less a magician himself, and more of a shopper, it seems the best idea when playing Dexter is to buy spells, and then give them to somebody else. With only 5 sanity available for casting and a very poor will, Dexter simply can't rely on his magic all the time. Dexter is also the single unluckiest character in the game. While he isn't the only character whose luck maxes out at 3, he *is* the only character whose luck maxes out at 3, and always wants to have his Lore high.... This probably gives him a 0 luck for most/all the game. What do you do with dexter? Fighting will get you frequent trips to the Asylum, and such poor luck makes you think twice about taking on Encounters.

Second most overrated IMO is Pete. Now, I know there is a lot of Pete love, but I dont find him all that compelling. Yes, his fight-will is great, better than great, actually. However, his low speed makes his very high sneak far less useful. Pete *really* requires a mortorcycle, a map, or some other speed-increasing thing to be effective. I also find his ability is situationally useful, but usually less than good. Pete suffers from start problems. He wants to be fighting, that's what he's best at, but he doesn't start with any garunteed weapons, which can be tough if you don't get one and have no money to buy one either. This leaves Pete trying to bum money/weapons off other investegators, which can be tough for the rest of your team because of Pete's aforementioned low speed and his inability to get anywhere.

awp832 said:

::Rolls eyes:: while I agree with you about Marie (her shotgun exploit is very powerful), I think you're *underrating* Pete. First of all, even in a game where nothing particularly useful pops up, he's a decent fighter, even though he's a bit poor and slow for my tastes. He starts with a good number of clue tokens. And you never know when discarding that **** dog will come in handy. But that's not what makes him great. Old Journal. King in Yellow. Livry de Ivon. Dhol Chants. Eltdown Shards. And last, but definitely not least under certain conditions), Crowbar. Any of these items can put Jaqueline's ability to shame if properly exploited. Who cares if you default on a bank loan if you can choose any three spells from the spell deck, or remove who knows how many elder signs, or get all the clue tokens you can eat, or rob half the common item deck. As for preventing the third act... I've rarely seen the second act pop up, and never the third, unless you play with custom rules or only the base game and KiY, it's very unlikely.

Anyways... Just on Pete, you're not comprehending just how powerful his character is if played properly (the team seeks money so that they can get one of the items he can abuse, then they break the game).

As for Dexter, I don't think he's terrible, but I do think he's overrated, that's nothing new ;')

I'm putting the investigators I know (Sorry, Kingsport) into four tiers. The first tier are ones that are virtually undeniably good. The second tier are investigators you shouldn't be sad about playing, but lack the oomph of the first tier. The third tier are not-great-not-terrible-excel-in-certain-situations. The last tier needs plenty of help, as written to be good. Then, perhaps more opinions will follow and we will learn more about how people rate things.

Of course, this is all my opinion, which has its own bias and play preferences. State your own as needed.

Tier one:

Mandy Thompson: 4 clues, amazing. Reroll, amazing.

Joe Diamond: 3 clues, great ability, especially with a certain someone. Relatively poor stats, but his options make up for it.

Darrell Simmons: Money! Choice of encounters is great for getting the things you need, be it memberships, clues or retainers.

Tier two:

Ashcan Pete: He's grown on me recently. 3 clues, great options and purpose, if he gets his stuff.

Bob Jenkins: Really, nothing to complain about here. Really solid character, can do a lot.

Carolyn Fern: Great caster, and lucky too. Hampered by speed, but very able character.

Gloria Goldberg: The ability is really useful. Her stats are nothing special, but her stuff is good. Once she's in the gates, it's a breeze.

Harvey Walters: Solid. Does many things well, and can attend to monster fighting, gate closing, or general spellcasting, at your option.

Jacqueline Fine: Good stats, and the ability can save you a lot of trouble.

Jenny Barnes: Works great as a supplier. Her stats aren't bad, though, and her presence in the field can be helpful.

Kate Winthrop: A good caster, and somebody who can get things done. Potentially very abusable ability.

Leo Anderson: I like him a lot. What he does is often dependant on Ally draw, which is very swingy. Leadership is incredibly useful, almost as good as Mandy's ability.

Marie Lambeau: Witch Blood is enough to put her here, for me. The rest of it is also helpful. In response to the above comments, it's annoying that she only has max 4 lore.

Rita Young: I know, discouraging ability. But great stuff and money, and a very competent fighter. The ability almost completely removes the threat of madness or injury, letting her keep doing whatever she wants unhindered.

Wilson Richards: Fun abilities, and awesomely flexible. Fun stuff. This is perhaps a case of favoritism.

Tier three:

Amanda Sharpe: I personally like Amanda a lot, but she needs to be lucky with her stuff, or catch some good breaks.

Dexter Drake: Encounter and Sanity problems. When he draws spells, we can talk.

Diana Stanley: I'm underrating this one. She doesn't have much, and it can be hard to get much. Spending all of her time at the STL can be great, or so-so. Useful abilities, but I'm not as keen on them.

Jim Culver: Baffling abilities, and confusing stats and stuff. Situationally, very nice. 3 Clues is good. Give that Golden Trumpet to one of the next three saps.

Mark Harrigan: Cool ability and good stuff, but the sanity will get you every time.

Michael McGlen: See Mark. Slightly less of a problem, with a higher will.

Monterey Jack: See Mark.

Tier four:

Vincent Lee: Slow, subpar caster, poor fighter. Has good stuff, but essentially lacks purpose.

Sister Mary: Well documented opinions of her problems, mostly, that she starts with too little.

So, who am I over-or-underrating?

awp832 said:

That's not really an accurate assessment however. Some people (shame on them, pick investigators), others (go me, Tibs, etc. ) use random each game. My only change to pure random is that if investigator X was used in the previous game, put it back and shuffle investigator "deck" again, draw a new one, until you get an investigator that wasn't the last game.

flamethrower49 said:

For me, Darrell is tier 2. Avi has crazy uses to exploit him and his ability, but I don't like exploiting people . Also, for me, Darrell often gets "tons" of Clues, but always fails in the OWs.

Amanda and Dexter go down to tier 4 for me. I hate them both SO much.

Diana and Michael up to tier 2. Diana is slow, but really like her abilities, plus the Lore 6 is kick-ass when gate-hopping (R'lyeh at -3, pfft, easy). Michael, I tend to do well with him. Also gets a boost for being the team when I managed to beat Yog Sothoth in final combat. Mark's ability seems to get less use, though 3 Clues (IIRC) is nice.

Sister Mary is a strong tier 2, on a good day tier 1 . Yeah, she's got crappy stuff, but the morale boost I get from her being in the game is enough for an automatic tier 2.

Right, the investigator popularity section of the report just shows how many sessions were reported using that investigator. Not everybody has DH or KH, but everyone has AH. You should be looking at Marie in relation to other Dunwich investigators.

The only real thing that can be gleaned from the popularity portion is just that—who's popular. Clearly Mandy is the fan-favorite, as she blows away even the 2nd place spot. But having Dexter high on the list does not make him overrated—it makes him popular. I think Dexter is an awesome character and I enjoy every moment of his silly antics. Having a maxed out Lore make cause you to trip over things or bang your head a lot or walk in on bad situations, but when you do get that string of nonstop Lore encounters, you can feel like a god. In last night's game, Dexter did just that—Lore of 6 because he had the skill, luck of 0—and was able to glean 3 clues out of Carl Sanford, as opposed to losing all 5—then he followed with two other Lore-based encounters. Dexter was specifically chosen at setup by one of the other players, too.

So, according to Dam, I overrate Darrell, Amanda and Dexter, and underrate Diana, Michael and Mary. It seems that Tibs thinks I underrated Dexter. Anybody else?

On the subject of Darrell, I don't feel like it's "exploiting" Darrell to fish for the encounters you want to have. It's just sensible. Avi just talks about the game in a very analytical manner. There's been plenty of times we've used Darrell to avoid disaster, not by hunting for the Church prayer encounter or the Science Building Dimensional beam machine, but simply by diving for an ally we know he can get to end The Stars are Right. It's also nice that he's almost immune to "A gate and a monster appear!" Unless he doesn't want to be, which happens sometimes, too.

flamethrower49 said:

Not really. I just like him. Nothing about tiers or strength—I find him as balanced as all the other characters... just when I see that top hat over a purple background, I know I'm in for an adventure.

Ok, is there a differnce between investigator popularity and having a 'high rating'? Tibs seems to think so, I'm not seeing it.

To me, if an investigator is popular, it means s/he is highly rated. So an overrated investigator is one who is highly rated (popular) who really isn't that good, correct?

So, I really don't see how the stats reports aren't an appropriate way to judge this, except for that I agree that the expansion investigators will probably be less popular because not everyone owns the expansions. Still, Marie trails in popularity behind Lily, Rita, and Mark, all of whom I feel she is better than.

Yeah, Pete can abuse the Old Journal, or other 'disposeables', but he has to have money to keep buying stuff, so unless he has someone feeding him money or a job, I'm not convinced. Ironically, it seems the best stuff that Pete can abuse are tomes, which makes his Lore of 3 and sanity of 4 and speed of 3 all cry themselves to sleep at night. I guess he can give the spellcasters some help, but that doesn't impress me enough to put him in teir1, or even in teir2.

awp832 said:

Rating to me indicates how powerful people feel s/he is in game terms. Mandy and Daisy namely would/do rate high. Neither of those is popular for me (well, Mandy isn't as she's the only one of the two I have). Additionally, if you pick investigators at random, rating <-> populartity don't go hand in hand. If on the other hand you always hand-pick your investigators, running Mandy, Daisy, Darrell, Joe D, then they IMO would.

Pfft, Old Journal, who shops at the General Store anyway ? Once you've spent a whole of $6 to re-shop King in Yellow 3 times, for a "free" 12 Clues, Pete starts looking kick-ass. Early KiY + Pete in the game means I don't send anyone shopping at Curiositie as usual, instead I sent Pete + high-Lore investigator with money there. Why wouldn't you trade money to Pete when you work that combo ? That way they don't even have to move that much. If you're using Pete to read Tomes, then no wonder you think he sucks. But get an OW encounter that returns you early to a gate swarming with monsters and crank that Sneak ever higher, evading everything under the sun.

Tibs said:

Similarly, I really like Sister Mary. I think she has brilliant flavour. I like her art and her backstory. I'm playing her with the houserule that she can use a clue token to reroll the check to lose her blessing. This simple change puts her solidly in the second tier, imho.

Dam said:

I believe in Intelligent Design. The Elder Gods created Man (Darrell in particular), so I could manipulate him! The trick to playing Darrell (even if you're not exploiting locations with him) is to send him to a soft gate (dreamlands— or a +0 modifier).

As for what you said about Mary. You are insane. Clearly insane (said shortly after my Creationist credo). :')

Avi_dreader said:

It doesn't matter which gate he enters, it's never the closing that's the problem, it's getting back to Arkham with all his limbs attached/not getting LiTaS'd.

flamethrower49 said:

Heh... I like his immunity to the gate/monster appearances too. He's good for picking up clue tokens at potentially dangerous locations (another plus). One problem I had with your tier system (and I won't go into detail on this because I'm currently procrastinating for a large paper) is that in your second tier you have some characters that are *much* better than most of the other characters in the tier (take Leo Anderson for instance, or Jaqueline Fine). ::Laughter:: actually it's difficult to use Darrell to exploit South Church with all the expansions (although he's still nice for getting retainers— if he loses his, alchemies, allies, especially with the Dragon's eye— then he really can be a game breaker) and there's a new encouner in Kingsport that he can exploit even easier than South Church for removing doom tokens ;'D I'll let you find it on your own. And no, I've never actually used it (yet), but I'm aware of it ;')

Normally I just use him as a cash cow and to go to general locations safely (while tending to goet benefits), those abilities alone are very powerful, but his ability to dig through particular locations (in addition to this, is what makes him top tier, in my opinion).

Dam said:

Blah, you can't get him through a freaking gate safely? Don't you equip your characters before tossing them into interdimensional portals? Or do you just say "Go in naked, and have fun with the tentacles"? Warg. Send him into Plateu of Leng, or City of the Great Race. Either of those places should be doable. Keep him away from blue portals (more likely to do sanity damage). Send him in with a few extra clues, or an elder sign backing up the clues— just in case you *have* to use some clues to keep from getting LITAS or KOed. ::Shrug:: it shouldn't be a problem if you send him in with good stuff and a bit extra for safety reasons. When travelling intergalactic, always bring condoms. Errr. Lanterns. How did I make all those typos?

Avi_dreader said:

He can have 8+ Clues (not even against Hastur), Physical and Magical Weapon and draws an encounter that messes him up without a roll, or roll fails despite Clues. Jumping into Another Dimension or Dreamlands often gets you "Other" encounters, which seem bad. Not as bad as R'lyeh by name, but still.

awp832 said:

Uh, it's *very* easy to exploit Old Journal or KiY— one costs a dollar, and one costs two dollars. It's well worth the money. And AH is a cooperative game (and even if it wasn't there's still bank loans). It's more reasonable to have Pete shop/recycle while other players supply him with money and take the items that they are better fit to use anyways. It's not hard to get 12-15 clues out of one old journal (oh no, I spent five dollars for 15 clues, what a rip off!) or 12-16 clues from a KiY (6-8 dollars). It's really not costly, especially when you consider the cost benefit ratio and how difficult clues are to get normally.

Dam said:

FFG has cursed you for not buying Kingsport.

jhaelen said:

::Shrug:: I'd be amenable to the argument that a rerollable blessing Mary would be first tier (albiet low first tier) or high second tier ;')