This subject came up in a different thread and I wanted to see what other GM's thought on the matter.

The question I have is this:

Can a character or even NPC for that matter with the Untouchable trait pick up and use a daemon weapon with all of the effects of that weapon intact?

I'd say no for three reasons.

A) The weapon would have to be wielded by either a Sorceror or Psyker since normal humans cannot exert influence on entities mentally, therefore an Untouchable wouldn't even register that a weapon has a bound daemon within to begin with.

B) The untouchable disrupts or nullifies effects originating from the warp or warp entities effectively cutting off the creature from the warp. ie Any effects associated with it's presence would end up being severely disrupted to the point that the effects would be minimal or simply nullified completely.

C) It just seems to be a little too Munchkiny (I love how this word has become an adjective)

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the matter as I know that I don't always interpret the rules properly, and I want to make sure that I'm not way off base for telling one of my players no after they practically begged me to let them do it.

Peace

Yes. Simply put: because there is nothing mentioned in the rules concerning either untouchables or daemon weapons why it couldn't be possible...

Would you care to explain your interpretation on how you are capable of succeeding on the Daemonic Mastery test because I believe that the RAW is specific on the notion that you have to effectively bend the entity's will to your own in order to gain the benefits of the weapon.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Accoridng to the rules of daemon weapons the benefits come automaticly from wielding it. In order to wield it one must succed with daemonic mastery test (since the daemon within will rebel at anyone trying to touch the weapon), a daemon trying to rebel will want to possess the wielder, however if the wielder is a blank, the possession attack will fail. It doesn't say anywhere that blanks are unable to preform mastery tests. So until an official errata comes out, I see no reason to concede. An if one do come out, well then thats just dandy...

Page 114 in the DotDG under the section titled: The Daemonic Mastery Test. A battle of wills is fought between the entity and the "summoner" psychically.

Page 121 in the DotDG under the section titled: The Beast Within. You must succeed in a Daemonic Mastery test in order to use the weapon.

The fact that they specifically say that you have to succeed in the daemonic mastery test under the the beast within section tells me that in order to use the weapon you have to bend the entity's will to your own. An untouchable is incapable of doing the Daemonic Mastery test, therefore is incapable of gaining the benefits of the daemonic weapon's abilities.

I'm going to say no. In order for the untouchable to bend the daemon within the weapon to her will, she needs to in some ways communicate with the weapon. Since there is no way for this to occur (since its done psychicly) its impossible.

Now that said on the plus side, the daemon can't possess the untouchable either.

So my guess is that its just a regular sword in the hands of a untouchable. I'd probably add the monoweapon quality to the weapon, but otherwise no benefits from wielding the weapon.

On the plus side that means that any daemon weapon that is found can be safely transported by said untouchable, which would just be another reason to have an untouchable on your team.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

There under the same rules it is mentioned that the "benefits" can sometimes be simply a side-effect of the daemon's presence (which indicates that the daemon musn't always actively "help" the wielder in any way). So what happens when the untouchable touches the weapon? Will it simply fly out of the hands of the blank (him being unable "to WIELD" the weapon) or just cease to work? Since there is no explanation what so ever what would happen if a blank grasps the daemon weapon, any given results are nothing short of arbitrary. Which is fine of course since the GM has the last say and preceeds anything written in the rulebook, however if one is to stick to the rules completely and the rules dont extrapolate what the effects are when a blank tries to grab hold of the qeapon in question, ANY arbitrary result is correct...

You called attention to the RAW as one of your points saying that it doesn't say anything about an untouchable using daemon weapons. I concede the point that there is nothing explicitly saying that in the section on Daemon Weapons. However under that section it specifically states that one cannot use a daemon weapon without first succeeding in the Daemonic Mastery test. That basically means that bottom line that Daemonic Mastery test is the end all be all on the subject, you have to make that test in order to gain the benefits of the weapon. This also means that regardless of your interpretations on the daemon's presence you can't get the benefits of it's presence without first making the Daemonic Mastery test. It says that very clearly in the RAW.

Now that being said if your gm allows it then more power to you. Run around smiting everything in sight. As I said previously it just seems like a blatant perversion of the intended meaning. ie Munchkiny. And if that's your style of play. Have fun.

Now I could see the Daemon Weapon retaining the unnatural durability trait while being used by the Untouchable, and maybe the lethality. Maybe. But the Weapon attributes would have to be subject to the Rules on the Beast Within, meaning having to succeed on that Daemonic Mastery test I keep bringing up.

I think the question is pretty moot. Regardless of whether or not an Untouchable can influence the demon in the demon weapon, the presence of the untouchable will tend to suppress the demon's powers, thus meaning that even if an Untouchable *can* master a demon weapon (doubtful - they can't use Sorcery or Psyker Powers), they would get nothing from it.

I'd agree with the idea of it not being possible at all. In fact i'd imagine an Untouchable trying to pick up a Daemon Weapon would be like when you try push a 2 magnets of the same polarity together.

I'd even go so far to inflict Malediction on the sword of course that'd require some extra work maybe setting a wounds characteristic on the weapon.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Yeah... personally, I've never taken "It doesn't say you can't" as a good justification for doing anything. In terms of discussing game rules, such phrases are regularly (but not always) used by people trying to bend the rules to their advantage...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And it's usually the line that gets me to put my foot down and make it a definite 'no' unless its something creative and not munchkiny

my understanding that the rules are not complete on this very specific point thus it takes a patch of houserule to use.

The blank reduce the demons Wp by 2 times his own Wp, and nulifys Wp bonus/2 rounded up of the demon weapons attributes, determined random for each hit.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I am not one of those people. I just think the concept is cool, no more, no less. I know what happens when munchkinism takes the upper hand in RPGs and it gets really dull. Since I am both player and gamemaster in our group (we have a rotating schedule on who is supposed to be game master during the next adventure), my playing style gets severely influenced from gamemastering. My concern both in character making, rules interpertation and adventure writing is to bring out the things I think are cool and exciting. And getting obnoxious amounts of stat bonuses or other similar advantages does not appeal to me. After all, its just numbers. Daemon weapon wielding blanks who sadistically likes that fact that the bound daemon si tortured by them jus holding the weapon and turning it against the forces it was spawned from, on the other hand is a cool concept. And if the rules can be inteperted in such a way that makes that concept possible I will allow it...

Varnias Tybalt said:

You do realize that with the right interpretation anything is possible. I've dealt with players that will twist a rule around till it's staring at it's own rump. It really takes a lot of the themes inherent to the game and throws them out the window.

Zarkhovian_Rhythm said:

Well, thats their (and I guess also your) problem. I dont really see that this debate weather a blank can use a daemon weapon or not as being the most important theme of the game (in fact, I dont see it as a theme in its own right, just an obscure little detail that I should reasonably exploit to make as cool as possible when it arises in the game scenarios i participate in). Quite simply the WH40K universe isn't about blanks being unable to use daemon weapons. Its not about blanks being able to use them either. However one of the concepts appeal to me more than the other (simply because the first is more constraining than the other). There is no logical reason at all for me to choose the more boring option, and that is for several reasons:

A. the rules are quite unclear as to the effects concerning the situation.

B. I play and GM RPGs because its supposed to be fun. Constraining and "uncool" aspects destroy the very purpose of playing in the first place.

and C. My intentions aren't and never will be to unecessarily exploit rules to gain benefits or stat boosts to my player characters. I dont treat RPGs as a competetive game where the most "able" character is the best one, and should be acheived as fast as possible. (for instance, thats exactly the reason why I like a few particular RPGs that tries hard to emphasize on the player characters negative sides). In fact, one such game is one that I consider to be better than Dark Heresy (and thats saying quite a lot because im a total geek when it comes to the WH40K universe). Simply because that game not only tries hard to emphasize creating very "human" characters (instead of card-board cut out superhero stereotypes), with several negative sides. But the rules are so wonderfully designed to promote the very same "cool stuff" that I like. So you can have both very human player characters AND cool, stylistic and fantastic combat at the same time.

My original question was actually can a blank master a daemon weapon. Not use a daemon weapon. The two concepts are mutually exclusive according to you, they are not to me. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

And as I've already told you. If you want to great. If your gm says you can great. I'm not saying that you personally can't do it because the rules are absolutely clear. They're not hence me asking the question and expressing my personal view on the subject.

In the spirit of game balance I also feel that if you are effectively getting all of the benefits of something like a daemon weapon you should also have to deal with the drawbacks. Otherwise what's the point? Other than to be an utter bad ass in combat and bend the mechanics of the game over a table sans sacred machine oil.

Seems like a no to me and a good way to piss off the daemon. Wouldn't the blank basically cause the weapon to go "dormant" effectively cutting the weapon's daemon off from everything. Where as being stuck in a weapon can be described as prison. Being in the hands of an untouchable would be like spending time in solitary confinement. Might make a cool plot element too. I might need to reread the information on daemon weapons though. Still the idea of a pissed off daemon stuck in a weapon held by an untouchable is a fun thought.

*shrug*

Mark It Zero said:

Exactly! Especially if the daemon frequently talks to its wielder. It knows it cant harm the blank but it can **** sure taunt the wielder in porportions only to be desribed as.. well daemonic.

Also I like the thought of drawbacks (even for blanks). Now that I think of it, perhaps a nice compromise would be for the blank wielding a daemon weapons to suffer from different drawbacks than normal people. Perhaps instead of suffering the risk of being possessed, the daemonic prescence disturb reality around the blank (making the walls sweat blood, constant annoying whispers sounding from unknown places etc.). These effects would be noticed even to the blank (as the events doesn't have to be "illusions" per se, but the actual reality being warped). People around the blank would also be horrifyingly aware of these effects, making it impossible for the blank to use the daemon weapon in any stealthy or subtle way (when the world goes Silent Hill around you, people will notice no matter how sneaky you are) . Also the NPC (or even PC) psykers in the area will have their warp phenomenas manifestations being multiplied (instead of the warp spewing out only ONE Bloodletter, THREE will come out to play etc.).

Quite simply: if the daemon within cant harm its wielder, its gonna play rough on everything else around it, making it rather cumbersome to use the weapon in certain situations. (adding the constant daemonic taunting the blank will have to listen to).

Yeah, that sounds like fun! >

Exactly! Especially if the daemon frequently talks to its wielder. It knows it cant harm the blank but it can **** sure taunt the wielder in porportions only to be desribed as.. well daemonic.

Can it? Unless the weapon can produce sounds, it has to resort to telepathic communication - which isn't going to work on the Blank.

Cifer said:

Warp-induced whispers "from beyond", would be my best bet. Twisting reality into making normal winds and other such ambient noise into sounding like a voice that speaks (therefore not a telepathic illusion per se, but something the blank and everyone else can actually hear). In a way giving the daemon weapon its own identity (however this would only be interesting for use in daemon weapons holding greater entities and not a "warp animal"-entity).

Me, who is relatively new to DH but old in the 40k universe whould a "blank" no to this. If U read a lot of 40k novels(I now they dont have anything to do with the game) u would have a cooler understanding of a Blank as they are called. They can, again in novels, effectively push a deamon back to the warp just by getting to close to them, hense the entity in the weapon would find itself cornered like a nurgling in the sights of a psycannon and therefore be destroyed.

This is the way I would play blanks and Deamonweapons in my games... but thats just me=)

I wouldn't have the blank hedge out the daemon from the weapon but I wouldn't allow it to do anything at all until the weapon fell out of the blank's sphere of warp emptiness. It would be cool to have it cause things to happen but unfortunately it would have no use of it's psychic powers as a blank not only resists all powers, it blocks all psychic ability completely. The daemon would literally cease to influence or sense anything until such a time that the weapon found it's way to a new user. However such imprisonment gives the entity a lot of time to plot revenge, and where it's plans may have previously been subtle they may now be overt and utterly brutal.

On the question of the mastery test I think equally legitimate arguments can be made either way.

While untouchables have no psychic presence they do have will (as in "test of wills"). The issue comes that the rule states its "psychic" test of wills. Clearly untouchables have no psychic presence and can in fact not be directly affected by psychic means. The interpretation comes in determining the default. If the daemon can't psychically come to grips with the null then it obviously cannot defeat the null in a psychic test of wills and vice versa. So who lost here? The daemon or the null?

I can see arguments that the null loses because he can't force the daemon to use its power to do what he wants. I can equally see the argument the null automatically wins because the daemon can't fight for mastery with someone it can't touch.

However, regardless of which camp you fall into re mastery tests, I feel the daemon weapon would be suppressed by the nulls presense like any psyker, daemon, or psychic effect.

How I'd handle it as GM is that each time the null picks up the weapon/brings it into his area of influence, roll for each of the weapon's powers against the daemon's willpower w/ penalties as if it were a psychic power trying to be manifested within the null's aura. Those that make the roll function (but are reduced in power as if they were psy powers in the nulls aura, for one's who mechanics don't function cleanly w/ the model GM must make judgment call) those that fail the roll don't function.

Anything the daemon tries to do while the weapon is in the nulls aura (telepathic communication, warp whispers and whatever else was mentioned in prior posts) should be treated like the daemon was a psyker the null was hugging.

Just my opinion on the matter.