Robomummy said:

It's really quite simple. I'm saying that you buy into the in-game racist propaganda that unfairly sterotypes the various abhumans. You call it fact, but that's not necessarily true. What is true is that ogryn have a large penalty to Intelligence that they have to work very hard to overcome just to come up to the level of the average Guardsman. What is not true is that they absolutely cannot overcome this deficiency.

HappyDaze said:

Robomummy said:

The established fluff of the game has ratlings and ogryn as an important part of the guard. Your stridency in trying to remove them from available player options when we have a system that lets PC's roll as orks or kroot is really strange, and not really based on coherent reasoning. Even if it was clear in the fluff that ogryns had a particular level of intelligence, cybernetic augmentations for their brains are well-known in the fluff, and since PC's are meant to be exceptional in some ways, playing the scary clever ogryn is certainly with that remit. If you want to tell your players at the table you run that they can't play ogryn, go ahead, but shouting about it here where most folks either are interested in playing ogryn or else simply don't see the point of arbitrarily telling the former 'no' borders on solipsism for its lack of awareness.

Also, the fluff of 40k has gone through so many incarnations and revisions and reimaginings that your arguments, in the end, come down to your own personal preference, since you're arguing to use one interpretation of the fluff over another. This is 40k mark Fantasy Flight, different from the current fluff or black book grimdark or 2e or RT zaniness.

Dark Heresy is very very grimdark, albeit less now than when it was first published.

Robomummy said:

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff

The established fluff of the game has ratlings and ogryn as an important part of the guard. Your stridency in trying to remove them from available player options when we have a system that lets PC's roll as orks or kroot is really strange, and not really based on coherent reasoning. Even if it was clear in the fluff that ogryns had a particular level of intelligence, cybernetic augmentations for their brains are well-known in the fluff, and since PC's are meant to be exceptional in some ways, playing the scary clever ogryn is certainly with that remit. If you want to tell your players at the table you run that they can't play ogryn, go ahead, but shouting about it here where most folks either are interested in playing ogryn or else simply don't see the point of arbitrarily telling the former 'no' borders on solipsism for its lack of awareness.

Also, the fluff of 40k has gone through so many incarnations and revisions and reimaginings that your arguments, in the end, come down to your own personal preference, since you're arguing to use one interpretation of the fluff over another. This is 40k mark Fantasy Flight, different from the current fluff or black book grimdark or 2e or RT zaniness.

Yes they have their uses to the guard and fulfill specific roles, this doesn't mean that they interact well with other parts of the guard since they are seen as less then human. Even with cybernetics it only boosts the Ogryn's intelligence enough for them to understand orders and give basic orders. YEs you can play as them if you want to, apparently you do so don't let me stop you. But I am trying to discuss why I don't think they fit. if you don't agree then fine but I don't appreciate being called racist for playing the game based on established fluff. Yes the fluff has gone through many iterations but there are parts that remain fairly consistent, it is these parts that I think should be respected.

The imperium is a misinformed xenophobic race and I believe this is the way it should be role played to get the full effect of the grimdarkness of the universe. this means humans looking down on abhumans as little better then Xenos.

In short this is my opinion if you don't agree then fine but my opinion is generally shared amongst my group and works for us so this is how we play. Also I'm sorry if it seemed like I was "shouting", I did not mean for it to come across this way, I merely meant to reinforce my opinion with background information from the lore.

First of all, I never called you racist. I just called your methods anti-fun. Secondly, if your opinion is shared among your group, there's no need to 'ban' ogryn at all, as no one would have the interest in playing them.

Here's the truth about the fluff, by the way: 40k was originally a pretty clear port of the Warhammer Fantasy setting to space. Ogres and halflings came along. The settings have diverged since then, but the ogres and the halflings have stayed in, allied to the Imperium as they show up allied to the Empire in fantasy. It's worth noting that in both cases they are extreme examples of the expression of what it means to be human, as seen through a fantasy lens - transhuman, more or less.

Abhumans are not humans, they were once but have since evolved to be something different in order to adapt to their enviornment.

Not true their their scientific names are Homo sapiens minimus and Homo sapiens gigantus ergo they are the same species. They've always been in the fluff since Rogue Trader and every version of the Guard Codex so it would be incredibly remise of an Imperial Guard roleplaying game to miss them out.

Again you don't need them in your regiment any more than saying every regiment must have Leman Russes.

And they are no more limiting in roleplay potential than say a Techpriest, a hard line Commissar or even a space marine.

The definition of a species is not very precise in practice. However, if interbreeding (with fertile issue) is impossible (in nature) then you have separate species.

Now a Ratling female might not be able to deliver (vaginally) a Ratling/Human child at full term, but that's not a problem on any world with fair medical skills. A human female should have no problem at all. If the resulting hybrid is fertile and is healthy enough to reach maturity, then you can argue that Ratlings and Humans belong to the same species. As long as a viable fertile hybrid is possible the same applies to Ogryns.

However, the fluff never mentions hybrids... In 10k years you would think it should have happened. In fact, some populations may well be all hybrids - if human colonists came to the planet post-compliance. GW never explores this, and I don't think they will. There are no hybrids in the Fantasy Battle games and I don't believe there will be. Imo the same must apply to WH40K - no hybrids. This implies that Ratlings and Ogryns are not within the human species.

GWs business is selling miniatures. They are not going to develop Ratlings or Ogryns in any significant way, unless they decide there is a market for selling more Ratling and Ogryn miniatures - i.e. like they did with Ogre Kingdoms. Perhaps we might see some development like this with the new IG codex - but I am not hopeful.

Personally, I don't care to stick rigidly to established GW 'canon' (such as it is). Imo there should be dozens of Ratling and Ogryn homeworlds and the sons and daughters of each homeworld should have unique traits and cultures. To be good PCs, they need the breath of life out of the comic-relief mould they currently occupy.

I've studied my fair share of biology, and while whether or not two individuals can interbreed is oftentimes a good indicator of whether or not they are the same species, it's not the end-all be-all. Biologists have used other methods to define what constitutes a species or subspecies before.

Speaking of hybrids, any clamor for half-Eldar hybrids? They were canon once.

• If you cannot interbreed them - then they are different species. It's a definitive positive test for separateness. There is no question of this.

The way I remember it from the Beta, one of the biggest complaints about the Ratling was that they were the only option available for people that wanted to play dedicated Snipers due to their Comrade Advances. It seems that FFG introduced the Sharpshooter Advanced Specialty in Hammer of the Emperor as a way to fix that.

Oh, wait, you're discussing biology now. Don't mind me, just carry on.

Ok, I'm not too sure how this conversation took a turn towards trying to discuss biology of creatures in a fantasy game which has never been touched on but ok. Since I guess people seem to be missing the point why I do not allow these races, I will go back to my original point is that I ban ratlings and Ogryns because they are abhumans and looked down on by most of the other regiments that players interact with. This means that during the roleplaying part of the game where interaction with other regiments is key (in my games this is about 50-60% of the time) the characters often get sidelined or ignored by humans which look down on them for not being humans (which despite whether they are or not is irrelevant as the imperium is very strict with even part of it's motto as kill the mutant). This means that players are normally left out of a good portion of the game which leads to boredom or frustration. Thus these races have no part in my games other then a combat role which can be fulfilled by a different character class without the need to involve abhumans in the game. Yes I see why they had to put them in the book, it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

There are no hybrids in the fluff and I don't believe there ever will be

Actually that is incorrect, The Ultramarines librarian (Tiberus? I cant really remember his name) in the old fluff was an Eldar-human Hybrid. There are also some obscure references to other eldar-human hybrids although they aren't very frequent or as well known and I can't for the life of me remember their names (something about a woman in some book who led a gang and killed a bunch of astartes rings a bell). Plus who knows what goes on in Commorragh, in an interview with Phil Kelly on a video about the backround of dark eldar when the 5th edition book was released it was suggested that there could be some hybrids there also.

• If you cannot interbreed them - then they are different species. It's a definitive positive test for separateness. There is no question of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

Robomummy, I think your paradigm for the level of 'human' interaction that occurs between abhumans and the Imperial Guard at large is not universally valid. Catachan regiments, for example, are known for having a good rapport with their Ogryn auxiliaries. I also think that you are ascribing a value judgment to the interactions that abhumans would likely have with regiments - just because they're surrounded by haters, doesn't mean that roleplaying can't happen. You certainly have the opportunity to tell the story of a bitter rivalry or a comradeship that rises in spite of prejudice. We also know canonically that the ogryn are given instruction in the imperial creed, so they must interact with priests, and we know they interact with commissars - and you know what else is interesting about Ogryn and Ratlings? No fellowship penalty.

• If you cannot interbreed them - then they are different species. It's a definitive positive test for separateness. There is no question of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

I suggest you read it.

If two animals cannot be hybridized they are separate species - by every modern zoological definition.

The controversy lies in animals that can be hybridized - but such events are not observed in nature.

i.e.

Q: Are Lions and Elephants separate species?

A: Yes

Q: Are Lions and Tigers separate species?

A: Depends which definition you use.

Robomummy: Thanks for pointing this out. I am surprised GW ever flirted with half-elves - but apparently they did... However, can we agree it's not modern canon?

The products of mad science from Commorragh is not really evidence of common species. Those guys could make a half-man-half-chicken if they wished...

Personally, I think Ratlings and Ogryns should be able to interbreed with humans. In fact I would imagine humanity as a very genetically diverse group. I imagine a lot of genetic engineering happening on populations during the Dark Age of Technology. However, GW have not explored this greatly - and I doubt they will. I doubt we should see anything like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gethen

appearing is the WH40k verse.

Robomummy, I think your paradigm for the level of 'human' interaction that occurs between abhumans and the Imperial Guard at large is not universally valid. Catachan regiments, for example, are known for having a good rapport with their Ogryn auxiliaries. I also think that you are ascribing a value judgment to the interactions that abhumans would likely have with regiments - just because they're surrounded by haters, doesn't mean that roleplaying can't happen. You certainly have the opportunity to tell the story of a bitter rivalry or a comradeship that rises in spite of prejudice. We also know canonically that the ogryn are given instruction in the imperial creed, so they must interact with priests, and we know they interact with commissars - and you know what else is interesting about Ogryn and Ratlings? No fellowship penalty.

Yes I agree some regiments get along with them, this is true, but most don't. I also don't care about the fact that they don't have fellowship penalties because this argument is purely from a roleplaying standpoint and has nothing to do with stats or rules.

Yes you can have some sort of underdog story with them overcoming prejudice or a rivalry but to be honest that still doesn't help the roleplaying aspect for the same reasons I described before. Remember most of the Imperium is indoctrinated to think a certain way with human beings as the supreme beings of the galaxy and all other races are lesser. It is fine when occasionally an NPC is from a regiment that thinks that their regiment is highborn or superior but when this occurs all the time it really makes it boring.

I have no problem with abhuman NPCs, I just believe as a character class they are severely limited in the roleplaying aspect to make them not worth playing unless you build a campaign around them.

I have no problem with abhuman NPCs, I just believe as a character class they are severely limited in the roleplaying aspect to make them not worth playing unless you build a campaign around them.

In general, I feel that campaigns should be structured around the PC's anyway.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, being a total blowhard, I can't resist chiming in!

A couple things: one, Ratlings are always portrayed in the fluff as being fielded in dedicated all-Ratling units. What's the justification for having one added to a completely different unit type? (Of course, the same thing can be said of Storm Troopers...) It can be justified in a Dirty Dozen -type unit made up of members of other regiments, but that's not the approach taken in this game; in OW , everyone in the unit is assumed to come from the same world (resulting in some goofy situations, like literate Ogryns from Imperial Worlds and, worse, illiterate Commissars from Death Worlds!). So, were exactly did the Cadian unit's Kilbo Fraggins come from?

Also, getting back to the 'Hate' in the title of this thread, does it bother anyone else that Ratlings are the 'heavy hitters' in the game (at least at lower levels, due to the Accurate rules)- a roll they most certainly don't occupy in the 40K fluff?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, being a total blowhard, I can't resist chiming in!

A couple things: one, Ratlings are always portrayed in the fluff as being fielded in dedicated all-Ratling units. What's the justification for having one added to a completely different unit type? (Of course, the same thing can be said of Storm Troopers...) It can be justified in a Dirty Dozen -type unit made up of members of other regiments, but that's not the approach taken in this game; in OW , everyone in the unit is assumed to come from the same world (resulting in some goofy situations, like literate Ogryns from Imperial Worlds and, worse, illiterate Commissars from Death Worlds!). So, were exactly did the Cadian unit's Kilbo Fraggins come from?

Also, getting back to the 'Hate' in the title of this thread, does it bother anyone else that Ratlings are the 'heavy hitters' in the game (at least at lower levels, due to the Accurate rules)- a roll they most certainly don't occupy in the 40K fluff?

This pretty much sums up some of my feelings for these abhumans, yes you can play as like a dirty dozen or group of survivors or specialists but I think Only war is focusing too much on that. The vast majority of the guard aren't specialists and just ordinary linesmen in a squad with maybe a few support companies to aid them. Mixing and matching different regiments and unit types rarely happens.

I would be fine if people wanted to play as a group of abhumans but at that point it would be too one-dimensional and you might as well play a different game.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, being a total blowhard, I can't resist chiming in!

A couple things: one, Ratlings are always portrayed in the fluff as being fielded in dedicated all-Ratling units. What's the justification for having one added to a completely different unit type? (Of course, the same thing can be said of Storm Troopers...) It can be justified in a Dirty Dozen -type unit made up of members of other regiments, but that's not the approach taken in this game; in OW , everyone in the unit is assumed to come from the same world (resulting in some goofy situations, like literate Ogryns from Imperial Worlds and, worse, illiterate Commissars from Death Worlds!). So, were exactly did the Cadian unit's Kilbo Fraggins come from?

Also, getting back to the 'Hate' in the title of this thread, does it bother anyone else that Ratlings are the 'heavy hitters' in the game (at least at lower levels, due to the Accurate rules)- a roll they most certainly don't occupy in the 40K fluff?

.......

A CO has ended up with all these misfits/weirdos under his command that he has no idea what to do with. Might as well put them all in one unit under the responsability of someone else, PC Commissar; Priest; Enginseer; Stormtrooper; etc.

Also everyone is not assumed to come from the same world. Specialists like Ogryns & Commissars tend to take on the traits of the regiments they're assigned to ( Pg 58; Only War core rulebook; 2012 ). hmm sounds a bit snarky, did not mean it to be.

The literacy for Ogryns can easily be explained by the Orgryn's little 'un (they have comrades) reading for the big fella, of course you could just say that your Ogryn is a Bone 'Ed & is therefore smart enought to read.

The others are a bit more difficult, but it could be explained by the fact that there are few regiments the have NO language. Deathworlders just do not bother to learn how to read/write low gothic. A Commissar on attachment might become use to either filling out paper work in the regiments native language or not haveing to fill it out at all. The Low Gothic litteracy essentially attrophing.

Why 'HATE' Ratlings? they're kewl. A dedicated scout that can fit in really small places, & can tell you what path the enemy are taking so you have enough time to comb your hair, & set up heavy weapons to chop them up. All the while your little mate is shooting the enemy leaders inna face. But then we tend to play like everything can kill us, which it usually does.Them Orky Kommando are ded cunnin' making them traps outta leaves & sticks.

As to leathality, sniper weapons in 40K are pretty lethal against single targets like characters "Look out sir!" & tend to panic anyone near by.

A CO has ended up with all these misfits/weirdos under his command that he has no idea what to do with. Might as well put them all in one unit under the responsability of someone else, PC Commissar; Priest; Enginseer; Stormtrooper; etc.

Also everyone is not assumed to come from the same world. Specialists like Ogryns & Commissars tend to take on the traits of the regiments they're assigned to ( Pg 58; Only War core rulebook; 2012 ). hmm sounds a bit snarky, did not mean it to be.

The literacy for Ogryns can easily be explained by the Orgryn's little 'un (they have comrades) reading for the big fella, of course you could just say that your Ogryn is a Bone 'Ed & is therefore smart enought to read.

yes you can come up with whatever reason you can imagine why abhumans can fit into a story. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it will fit into the game. Anything can be changed for story sake, it doesn't mean that it is correct.

Also Bone 'eads are only a little smarter, they still aren't smart enough to read or even speak in more than short sentences.

you also said how many regimental support staff do not come from the same world, while this is true it really only applies to commissars, storm troopers, and abhumans since the majority of specialists do in fact come from their home world so the Departmento Munitorum can avoid inter-regimental feuds with mixed regiments. It still shouldn't matter since the PCs are normal guardsmen and are probably nowhere near important enough to warrant attaching specialists unless they were on an important mission which again can be resolved with changing the story but doesn't work from a background standpoint.

This also underlines my problem with other specialty classes such as commissars but that is not what this thread is about and I wont go into it here. An RPG about the Imperial Guard should be about the guardsmen.

A CO has ended up with all these misfits/weirdos under his command that he has no idea what to do with. Might as well put them all in one unit under the responsability of someone else, PC Commissar; Priest; Enginseer; Stormtrooper; etc.

Also everyone is not assumed to come from the same world. Specialists like Ogryns & Commissars tend to take on the traits of the regiments they're assigned to ( Pg 58; Only War core rulebook; 2012 ). hmm sounds a bit snarky, did not mean it to be.

The literacy for Ogryns can easily be explained by the Orgryn's little 'un (they have comrades) reading for the big fella, of course you could just say that your Ogryn is a Bone 'Ed & is therefore smart enought to read.

yes you can come up with whatever reason you can imagine why abhumans can fit into a story. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it will fit into the game. Anything can be changed for story sake, it doesn't mean that it is correct.

Also Bone 'eads are only a little smarter, they still aren't smart enough to read or even speak in more than short sentences.

you also said how many regimental support staff do not come from the same world, while this is true it really only applies to commissars, storm troopers, and abhumans since the majority of specialists do in fact come from their home world so the Departmento Munitorum can avoid inter-regimental feuds with mixed regiments. It still shouldn't matter since the PCs are normal guardsmen and are probably nowhere near important enough to warrant attaching specialists unless they were on an important mission which again can be resolved with changing the story but doesn't work from a background standpoint.

This also underlines my problem with other specialty classes such as commissars but that is not what this thread is about and I wont go into it here. An RPG about the Imperial Guard should be about the guardsmen.

You have made valid points.

However, an Only War unit is not a normal Guard squad in any case. Normal Guard do not get to do 'could alter the war!" stuff. They get to effect their little section of a battle & barracks. They are forbidden from doing anything else.

Also it does make sense from a backgroud stand point to have Ratling fire team (they come in pairs); Codex:Imperial Guard says it is "..quite usual to divide these team of skilled sharpshooters into smaller units that are then placed under the command of other Regimental officers."

Silly comparason but here it goes; WWI machine guns & Mortars were grouped into their own units at Battalion/Regimental command level, & individual teams/guns were dispatched to where ever they were needed under the command of the officer in that area they were dispatched.

I like the support careers, I can include them quite well. It is the Single Tank/sentinel per squad that I find troubling. Anymore than 3 players & half your squad has to walk behind your Leman Russ.

Guardsmen; Tanks; Artillery; Tanks & Artillery. This is the Hammer of the Emperor.

Sense two of mine......

However, an Only War unit is not a normal Guard squad in any case. Normal Guard do not get to do 'could alter the war!" stuff. They get to effect their little section of a battle & barracks. They are forbidden from doing anything else.

Also it does make sense from a backgroud stand point to have Ratling fire team (they come in pairs); Codex:Imperial Guard says it is "..quite usual to divide these team of skilled sharpshooters into smaller units that are then placed under the command of other Regimental officers."

Silly comparason but here it goes; WWI machine guns & Mortars were grouped into their own units at Battalion/Regimental command level, & individual teams/guns were dispatched to where ever they were needed under the command of the officer in that area they were dispatched.

Yes, I understand that. What I am saying that Only War focuses too much on the specialties and not enough on the ordinary guardsmen, that is what bugs me about the classes. I am fine with people who want to play specialties but I think they focused too much on them.

I understand why Fantasy Flight had to put them in the book but I think it makes people lose focus on the ordinary guardsmen. You can have an entire squad without a normal lasman in it. What is supposed to be the backbone of the guard is given such a small role in the book that it loses focus on what the theme of the guard is about.

Think we may be discussing the same thing from different ends here Robo.

To me the magority of the characters are bog-standard las-troopers. They just have different fields they are good at, but are not the be all-&-end all of their careers.

A Ratling is specifically a recon/sniper & unsuited to anything but.

That is the beauty of the Only War system, they are not careers as in other 40K RPGs, they're talent fields.

Want an 'Operator' to use heavy weapons, & versa-visa, they can, a lot easier than Ratling can.

The specialists stands out because they do. An infantryman is a weapon & a uniform, an MP is a visible scum-bag specifically there to make a 'normal' diggers life difficult.

Just perspective.

Which I think is where we are at. Standing slightly askance rather than opposite.

Sense my two of....

Think we may be discussing the same thing from different ends here Robo.

To me the magority of the characters are bog-standard las-troopers. They just have different fields they are good at, but are not the be all-&-end all of their careers.

A Ratling is specifically a recon/sniper & unsuited to anything but.

That is the beauty of the Only War system, they are not careers as in other 40K RPGs, they're talent fields.

Want an 'Operator' to use heavy weapons, & versa-visa, they can, a lot easier than Ratling can.

The specialists stands out because they do. An infantryman is a weapon & a uniform, an MP is a visible scum-bag specifically there to make a 'normal' diggers life difficult.

Just perspective.

Which I think is where we are at. Standing slightly askance rather than opposite.

Sense my two of....

I'm fine with most specialists, its just ratlings, Ogryns, and Commissars that I don't think fit in as Characters that people can play as (commissars are for a different reason as ratlings ands ogryns because they give the player too much power), preists and psykers are a bit of a long shot but they are regularly deployed with a unit of guardsmen so I'm fine with someone playing as either one as long as it is only one person, the other classes are fine.