Well, I think we can all agree that sterotypes and over-the-top characters have absolutely no place in the WH40k setting…

We all play this setting for deep explorations of the human condition, our characters having complex inner worlds which we develop over the course of the campaign with complete psychological verisimilitude. Who here could have read any of Tolken's novels without throwing them away in disgust at the cardboard characters presented? No one of course.

The inappropriateness of Ratlings within the setting is self-evident.

Just don't roll 00…

bogi_khaosa said:

The problem some people have is that when you play the above character as a human it's grim and serious, when you do so as a halfling it's kind of a joke. "Ha! Biggles Slungbottom is all PTSD 'n stuff, hilarious! Look, he's having a flashback to his unit being wiped out by daemonettes! LOL."

Yet Tom Cruise is the 'biggest' action movie star in Hollywood. Crazy world…

macd21 said:

Then Biggles puts a bullet through your eyes and adds another notch to his kill list.

The thing everyone seems to miss with non-human chaaracters is the roles they were intended to fill in the stories and games they feature in. Ogryn are the simpletons of whatever group they're in. They are written as flesh-and-blood tanks that are given comrades soley so they don't kill their own squads. They almost exemplify the guard itself, huge, powerfull, and by being stupid stay extremely loyal. Players could easily play one as uniquely insightfull Forrest Gump-style, or the literally-minded Slingblade-style retard. Also, thanks to how skills are set up in OW, dumb doesn't mean unskilled.

Halflings and Kender were both used in place of children and that level of innocence. They are meant to give contrast to the worlds around them and maybe remind readers/players a little of what they're fighting for. Tasslehoff and the Hobbits all grew up by the end of their journeys and could never really go home again. Warhammer makes this role problematic. The value set, in-universe, is different. Ignorance is a virtue, hate is a good thing, fear is encouraged. These are not the things people like to see associated with children and with good reason. GW keeps away from child abuse by treating Ratlings as a "joke" race, but a more fitting move might have been to describe them like Afflicted Kender, which are really just war-zone children (innocent, but morbid and violent because they don't know any other way), giving them a more nihilistic vibe than slacker-style. I don't blame FFG for sticking with the source material, but is does seem a little lazy to just copy them straight over.

Dwarves are the sad derivatives of Tolkien's creations in D&D. In Tolkien they're hairy, hearty and short because they live in caves in mountains that are all rock and ice. They forge because metal and rock are their most plentiful resource and they're greedy and insular because their race is in decline. The Hobbit is really just a last grasp at faded glory for them. D&D just took the outline and ran it into the ground. WHF breathed new life into them IMHO, gave them an edge with their grudges and hatred. Which is why it honestly surprises and dissappoints me to see them turned into goofy biker-caricatures in the tabletop and the pathetic Rogue Trader from the Ravenor books. Bring back the hate, hardness and long memories and I think they could fit in very well in any FFG 40K games.

The main problem with Abhumans, in OW anyhow, is that they've been mis-placed. The ab-humans should have been a Pre-made Regiment or Regimental World option, not classes. Using race-as-class is something from Ollld school rpg design that is generally considered a mistake nowdays, and doing that here puts them too much in the spotlight. Theres nothing that says a regiment must be all from one world and as a game progresses it'd make sense that the squad might get a little mixed, a Storm Trooper from a Schola world, a Priest from a Penitent one. Just refresh comrades from the core regiment's world and mention that elite troopers from other worlds sometimes get added to select squads, like the PC's.

Abhuman worlds could have had similar traits as the Penal Colony world to reflect the empire's negative views regarding them and the talents that were a part of the classes turned into race/world specific talents (regimental world based talents btw, hint, hint). Then you could have had snipers and heavy gunners that would more realisticly appear in a regimental tithe, coming from the same world. You wouldn't even have to restrict classes from them, just penalize starting characteristic modifires, starting aptitudes and the xp cost for playing a Commissar Ogryn would discourage all but the most determined player from even trying. The book is already out though, so maybe in an alternate rules book, web supplement or a future edition if they like the idea.

I'm totally writing up a Dwarf Regimental World now, with special bonuses against anyone calling them "squats".

Well just got hold of HotE and seen they seem to have gotten past ratlings role by given people sharpshooter. Disappointing a bit really

I find it hilarious that some people find Halflings too silly and fantasy inspired to suit 40k, but Orks are totally fair game.

Its not that ratlings are too silly its that they dont really fit into the game in my opinion. Ratlings and ogryns are very stange in a group of xenophobic humans and while they might have human origins they will still be regarded with suspicion and distrust amongst humans. I would prefer if the players in my group played humans with similar roles (sentry or brawler for ogryn and sharpshooter or weapon specialist for ratlings). I never liked either of these abhuman races as they just dont seem to fit in with the imperial guard. THe only exceptions I will make is if they were playing a squad of abhumans or if they played ogryns with catachans as there are ogryns on catachan.

Robomummy said:

Ogryn can fit quite well into regiments from Death Worlds (as you mentioned) but also Feral and Feudal worlds. A Feudal world where the humans drug ogryn brutes and 'sacrifice' them to the Imperium as their tithe could be fun. Likewise, ogryn are typically very pious and would do well in regiments raised under the Penitent homeworld. Do be careful not to put them into Mechanised Infanty regiments or any other where vehicle use is mandatory (Armour, Artillery, Drop Troops, etc.), since they don't typically do well with enclosed vehicles.

Ratlings, OTOH, can really do well coming from almost any of the more civilised worlds. Agri-worlds and Frontier worlds would work well too.

Two pointe to make here.

1) Not all regaments have Ratlings or Ogryns. Your right, thay aren't trusted or even tolerated by many in the Imperium of Man. And thats a part of the 40k world. Same with Psykers (Sanctioned or not), thay have no place in some regaments. BUT ,There are millions of cases of severel regaments joining forces to combat a comman foe. And thay may bring there Ratlings, Ogryns and Psykers to the fight for a tactical advantige over there foe. Just remember 1 thing , YOUR PLAYING PROFESSIONAL SOLDERS. If ordered to work with abumans THAY WILL OR BE SHOT BY THE COMMISSARS FOR INSUBORDINATION. And, If thay had no place in a guard army, then thay would have bin killed to the last by all humans.

2) Ratlings and Ogryns don't have to be played by the hobit and simpleton. Im in a campan that the ratling is a conniving little SOB with a sniper rifle. And the Ogryn is trying to be a big game hunter by learning from the ratling. So theres 2 that are braking there molds. It is 1 of the fun things you can do buy making a great backstory. So don't think that theres only 1 way to play a race or class.

Robomummy said:

Yeah okay congrats you just highlighted the most interesting aspect of roleplaying abhumans. I can't imagine why people would see this as grounds to rule these characters out in their games, are people that opposed to interparty conflict? And how is it ridiculous that they'd send such hated individuals into a war machine that 90 percent of the time results in death? It's not doing them a favour by any stretch of the imagination.

yeah gotta agree with the people on here that say "hate the player, not the race" i always found the idea of a character roleplaying a thief and stealing from other members of the party to be absurd, detrimental to the game and bad spirit. what does it honestly achieve? it just annoys people. a bit of intergroup conflict is fun but it jut slows the game down.

We have a Ratling in the group, and because we don't play xenophobes we're just fine. admittedly our PCs could be a bit more pious but really we just play a bunch of veterens/lads who do the get the mission done and respect anyone who can wield a gun properly. our Ratling is quite quiet and dour, but still thieves and cooks; a good balance.

yeah gotta agree with the people on here that say "hate the player, not the race" i always found the idea of a character roleplaying a thief and stealing from other members of the party to be absurd, detrimental to the game and bad spirit. what does it honestly achieve? it just annoys people. a bit of intergroup conflict is fun but it jut slows the game down.

We have a Ratling in the group, and because we don't play xenophobes we're just fine. admittedly our PCs could be a bit more pious but really we just play a bunch of veterens/lads who do the get the mission done and respect anyone who can wield a gun properly. our Ratling is quite quiet and dour, but still thieves and cooks; a good balance.

Tom Cruise said:

Robomummy said:

Thats missing the point, abhumans ARE humans, and the Imperial Guard is about all humanity being thrown in to the frey to stem the tide of xeno's and heretics arayed against the Imperium. Be they genetically superior nobles in the finest wargear available, wild hill men or hairy footed midgets, white, red, grey, blue or greenskinned they all fight, they all die in defence of the Imperium.

Whether or not you think they should be mixed in your regiment is totally different question. And if you have a xenophobic, abhuman hating regiment that's fine many are. But you missing out on those roleplay opportunities if they never come across a abuman regiment.

Face Eater said:

Robomummy said:

I would counter that you're wrong, as they expand the spectrum of options available to players. They've been a part of the universe for a long, long time, and are part of how they show that humanity has come a long, long way from present day. Humans have been living on strange planets long enough to have adapted to all sorts of crazy environments, and returning to humanity at large they definitely seem strange by comparison.

Terraneaux said:

Don't believe the propaganda. Racists would have you believe that ogryn are illiterate, but many a PC ogryn is fully literate, and they can theoretically keep pumping Intelligence by +5 every 2,500 XP by the Hammer of the Emperor rules.

HappyDaze said:

Robomummy said:

Or you're stuck listening to the propaganda. Sixty years ago, the party line was that a black man couldn't be President of the United States. The fluff of the time may have even supported that assertion, but that's because the fluff was wrong. So give an orgyn the chance and he might even become a planetary governor or a High Lord of Terra!

Robomummy said:

A lot of 40k fluff is hyperbolic or overwrought. This is like that. The average Ogryn PC is going to have what, a 16 Intelligence? That's pretty dumb. But there's always the opportunity for best quality cranial implants (go go Bonehead) or simply spending experience on intelligence if you want to play that scary smart ogryn.

Even if you don't, though, you can certainly roleplay a character with a very low intelligence. Finding ways to emote with a very limited vocabulary, relying on body language and facial expressions to a much greater degree, could be a lot of fun.

Well, im sorry if I like to play the game based on established fluff, If you just want to ignore it then go ahead but my group likes to play the game based on facts that have been established and it makes the ratlings and ogryns not fit into the book. Yeah you could play a smart ogryn, the rules make it possible but that still doesnt mean that it fits. Also where did that bit about the president and racism come from? it doesnt seem relevent to the conversation and it seems you have missed my entire point. This is a game with a well established fluff (I believe you are using that term incorrectly by the way) that specifically states what ogryns and ratlings are like, not like real life where people where actually oppressed and killed based on misbelief of superiority. I could go on at how The Imperium is supposed to represent the extremes of humanity, fanatical devotion, and other concepts but thats another conversation that Im not interested in having right now and would derail the topic of this thread. Anyway back to my original point, Bottom line my gaming group treats estblished fluff as fact for playing this game (dumb ogryns, untrustworthy ratlings, etc.) If you want to make up your own fluff then fine, go for it, but I maintain my postion that they dont fit into the roleplaying aspect of the game unless you change some fundimental facts. Since I dont want to rewrite major fluff when talking about entire species i would prefer to stick to what has already been established.