While using two guns at once you can explicitly fire both of them on full-auto. My question is do you receive the +20 Full auto bonus while doing so i.e. is the +20 bonus granted by the "Full-auto" action or by firing your gun on full-auto ?

My guess would be that you get the + 20. However your question is a bit hard to understand because to fire a weapon on full auto you MUST make a full auto action. Otherwise you cannot fire a weapon like that.

However I would like to see where in the book it say you can fire two weapons on full auto, since that is a full round action and you get only one of those per round.

W00KY said:

This isnt correct, as I said in my op the rules for wielding two weapons explicitly allow you to fire a gun (or two) on full auto as part of a Two weapon action.

W00KY said:

DH, pg. 197 "When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, you may fire each weapon on a different mode, for example, one on full automatic and one on semi-automatic. When firing a full automatic weapon in each hand, you may only lay down one area of suppressive fire."

I think you get the +20 bonus for firing on full auto. Basically your flooding an area of space with a lot of bullets/ energy blasts etc.

You get the bonus on both attacks, but you also get penalties for using two weapons.

Unless you have a host of talents negating these, such as ambidextrous, Gunslinger, etc.

Darth Smeg said:

IIRC the basic penalty for using two weapons is -20 and the bonus for full auto is +20 so if your guns are capable of full-auto then its nearly always better to use it as it allows you to make an attack at your normal BS but with two clip loads of full auto hits.

That would depend on your BS-rating.

While two attacks and twice the bullets sounds good, you are reducing your chance to hit.

If your BS is 30, you choose between one attack at 50% (giving a possible sucesses with 4 DoS = 5 hits) or 2 attacks at 30%, giving at most 2 DoS each for a max of 6 hits. But the chance of that is less than 1 %.

Now, if your BS is much higher, then yes it might make more sense.

Maths is your friend

Personnaly, I believe that the stress of having two fully automatic weapons frothhing forth a fusillade of firepower, is going to make it hard for you to aim even with the two weapon wielder talent.

But I have no complaints on a game level, FFG designed the rules, so unless you find something wrong with it, stick with the pros.

Besides, you could always take a full aim action the turn before so you do get a +20 bonus, plus If you're at short or point blank range, I think you have one dead heretic.

BloodAngelAzrael said:

Yes if you take a full round to aim and take no other actions, the next round you would get +10 for each gun. If you take 2 full rounds to aim and do nothing else, you could essentially get +20 with both guns. This is because a half action will only get you an aim with one gun. You have to dedicate more time to aim with multiple weapons.

Yes, but I don't believe said heretic is gonna stand there like a deer in the headlights...

While you line up your full auto death frenzy bullet storm insta-swiss-cheese burst... (exhale)

But if he's not looking at you or otherwise. BOOM.BOOM.BOOM. Dead.

If you stand there setting up an aim action, said heretic has the option of simply using Takedown or Grapple. Then again, you've just spent two turns to fire one blast when you could have spent one. Also, unless you are using pistols (which are explicitly allowed to be fired in this way on automatic and well-balanced for melee as a whole), you can't fire if the enemy closes to melee range while you're aiming.

Untalented, the penalty for using two weapons is -20 for the MH and -40 for the OH. With Two Weapon Wielder, this becomes -20 each. Ambidexterous without Two-Weapon Wielder makes the penalty -10 MH and -30 OH. Together, they make the penalty -10 each. Gunslinger reduces this to no penalty, with Pistols.

Here is a weird part: the FA and SA descriptions specify that you may fire two pistols on FA or SA at once. Normally, attacking with a weapon in each hand is a Full Action of its own (second bullet point on page 197). That precludes use of Full Auto or Semi-Auto, each of which is a seperately defined Full Action on its own (the same way using a Multiple Attack action with a melee weapon precludes using All-Out Attack, etc).

The sixth point under "Two-Weapon Fighting" on page 197 specifies that when using a ranged weapon in both hands, you each on different modes. However, as I read it, the only ranged weapons you can fire in this manner are pistols.

Feel free to prove me wrong, since this reading feels kind of weird. If the two-weapon Full Action attack is part of another Full Action attack, then it would seem that one could use All Out Attack with two weapons, gaining two attacks. Currently, you can use Swift/Lighting Attack and get two/three MH attacks and one OH, so this might be the case. However, the erratta specifies that this is not the case for charge, which is rather confusing.

This issue also came up in the Recoil Gloves & Bad Wrong Fun... Thread a while back, and I think the wording is intended to prevent the Über Munchkin-ness of operating 2 assault rifles or other Basic weapons simultaneously.

Firing two uzi's is very John Woo, but even with recoil gloves firing two full-size assault rifles (with fire selectors and 3 magz, a scope and a pistol grip, of course) on full auto is just ridiculous.

Darth Smeg said:

Well, I wouldn't say it's "ridiculous". I mean, this is a game where characters with Bulging Biceps can fire heavy weapons without even bracing them first.

Well, Stallone did that in First Blood II, so that's not COMPLETELY ridiculous, even though he was probably firing blanks and probably had aim like a blind, drunk grox.

But as I pointed out in the linked thread, just a little look at the weights of the equipment should be enough to prevent any but Schwartzenegger to pull it off.

Darth Smeg said:

Rambo 2 is over the top action, and quite ridiculous, especially when he fires thousand rounds with a piece of a belt no longer than his forearm...

But that fits perfectly well within WH 40k. The real question is: Do you like your acolytes to be toting around 2 autoguns, or even 2 long las with pistol grips? Luckily there is one major drawback to this in the game: Melee. They can only shoot pistols when engaged, so that makes using only 2 basic weapons a drawback. Using one basic and one pistol however is a valid tactic, even if it looks weird.

So far there is only the Scum in my game that uses two-weapon wielder (ballistic), and when he suggested dual wielding long las'es, I said no, unless he got compact upgrade on both of them.. I think he realized how silly it would look later on and has decided not to got the las way.

Varnias Tybalt said:

People in real life could fire mediujm machineguns while on the move, in fact it was the doctrine when assaulting a position. And unless you cound bracing as "leaning backwards and pointing the machinegun towards the enemy", then they did it without spending 3 seconds before being able to fire at all (which I picture as either resting the weapon on some surface or on a tripod or bipod.

Friend of the Dork said:

Well, yeah. But there's no such thing a s a medium machine gun in 40K, since the smallest and most portable one (Heavy Stubber) is borderlining on being a heavy machine gun rather than a medium one.

You know how Imperial design is like. Everything is built to last several hundred years of use and abuse, which increases weight and ruggedness significantly.

Just sayin'

I'm pretty sure that people who fire heavy weapons unbraced in the 40k game generally wear power armor. That makes some sense, since it increases strength, your size, etc.

Varnias Tybalt said:

It's not in the rulebook but that doesen't mean it doesen't exist in the setting. AFAIK, there is no entry for water in the equipment guide anyway

Autoguns in DH are not much heavier than RL examples., although obviously built to last. The Heavy stubber is based on the IG support weapon usually mounted on a tripod, so yeah it's basically a HMG.