@Boss Gitsmasha

I thought GMs were supposed to be storytellers first and foremost, to help create an engaging and exciting tale for the players to take part in.

That's your choice, of course. Personally, I prefer to be more or less equal parts storyteller, abjudicator, audience and world engine. And I've played with a few "storytellers" who seemed to view players and their actions mostly as hindrances to their perfectly-crafted plot. So why don't we leave out the name-calling and get back to the debate?

When was the last time you were angry at the universe for making your difficult-to-acquire golden knife much worse in cutting quality than a regular steel one? Not everything that's more difficult to get is automatically superior for every wielder in every situation.

How about simply turning the point of view around: Don't consider it a downgrade that makes the item more powerful, consider it a character trait of a 3600XP character that can turn a negative condition into a benefit.

@boss gitsmasha: You say the gm is supposed to be more storyteller than anything, but you then claim a possition on the subject at hand that completely disregards the story, realism and the actual rules to justify making a player unable to take advantage of his own abilities. Now correct me if my interpretation is wrong, but you seem to be saying that a person who has perfected the art of using battlefield conditions such as smoke, can not take advantage of smoke from a weapon that produces it, simply because it makes the weapon cheaper to buy. That is kind of pathetic and I dont know a single player that wouldnt kick out the gm and install a new one if the did things like that. How about rather than getting all bent out of shape about someone able to take advantage of a smoke belching gun, and think about how it still has downsides. Downsides like how AOEs dont even have to aim at the night lord they just aim at the smoke. Things like how even if he is hard to shoot at, he is declaring to the entire enemy force, via smoke signal, hey Im right here, plot artillery accordingly. You are so caught up on that the ability is a downgrade to the weapon, that you are completely disregarding storytelling entirely, so get off your high horse.

Also as an ork, gork and mork reject you for hiding behind the skirts of the corpse on the golden throne. And as I am not an honest imperial citizen, Im a freaking nugleite, I couldnt care less what the corpse god thinks, except to say that my god thinks his condition is coming along nicely.

Also as a gm I am the imperium of man and the god emperor, so your still not qualified to **** anyone(except your players)… Just sayin lol.

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Cursed Metal and high Toughness makes that particular Downgrade negligable. Throw in Regeneration to ignore it completely.

Scavanged Downgrade a weapon you're not going to hit someone with (Warp Staff and Null Rod comes to mind) and you've got a free +10 modifier.

As you can see, coming up with a workaround to Noxious Discharge ain't that horrible seeing as that particular downgrade already have a boon built-in (you're harder to hit for enemies as well).

Not wanting to get in to the role of the GM, there are 2 items that would let a psyker shoot a weapon while holding it aloft with a psykic power while maintaining 100% accuracy. The vox operated upgrade is the easiest and most direct method. Into the Storm also has a scope upgrade that a character can apply to fire around corners without exposing their head but allows all talents to be used through it (aim, called shot, dead eye shot, ect.).

Can't tell if this has already been resolved or not, but unless I'm mistaken, according to RAW, firing out of smoke doesn't carry any penalties, only firing into it.

That is open to interpretation. The rule stats that you have a -20 to hit targets concealed by smoke. This could easily be read to mean that if smoke is obscuring your vision everything is concealed from you and gets that penalty. Unless you have some way to see through smoke, then that interpretation makes sense to me.

I don't know though, I would say that it's still easier to see out of smoke than it is to see in. Smoke isn't just a barrier to vison, it also breaks up silhouettes, shapes and colours. RAW is a massive simplification, I agree, but gamewise it works, except perhaps when trying to see weapon downgrades as actual disadvantages.

Personally, while I like the idea of downgrades, it doesn't seem to have been implemented very well in BC. For a start, you can choose them, and people are always going to choose the one that affects them the least, and some of them clearly would have no effect on some weapons. You should at least have to roll randomly.

(Side question, Fiendish Recoil: What if I fire first, then move?)

Also, interesting to note, according to RAW, melee weapons can have the ammo glutton downgrade. Whaaaaa?

Thaddux said:

htsmithium said:

I'm fairly sure that Imperial (and most Chaos) chain weapons are electrically driven. Fossil fuel driven versions would likely need to be air-breathing which would be a faily signifficant limitation.

I thought I had seen pictures of chainswords were they either had exhausts and/or smoking, that said, it could be both (electrical and fuel) or just different models in the huge imperium