Scoundral vs. Stormtroopers? Why any question?

Clearly, there exists one canonically correct answer to this. One Scoundral -- only if he's cool -- can screaming rush about two or three no problem. When said Scoundral -- even if he's cool -- brashly rushes into a room full of them, the Stormtroopers win. Well, that is, if the mooks could hit anything, they'd win.

But, they can't see. Because all of the elite stormtroopers have been sucked up to become Storm Commandos or Royal Guards. And then elite Royal Guards have all been sucked up to become Sovereign Protectors.

There's the Imperial training: mook shoots at jawas until he can hit one. If he can't hit one, he's enlisted into the Emperor's elite brigade of "Heroes of Yavin Hunters." If he can hit one, he's sent after elderly moisture farmers. If he can hit them, then they're promoted to Storm Commandos to see real action against other soldiers. If he can't hit them, then they're enlisted into the Emperor's private guard. They do this, because their guns are immediately taken away and they are tasked with standing around all day guarding the most dangerous being to ever have lived in the entire history of the universe. See, they think they're becoming more elite, but the reality is that the guy who can hit womp rats is about the best there is.

This should answer everyone's question satisfactorily?

Even though I'm the OP, I think they are pretty much equally "cool". They are just cool to me for different reasons.

ErikB/AluminumWolf please don't riddle one of my threads again. I think this is the second time I've asked. You can easily create your own thread, I've seen you do it. If you continue this behavior it will just end up with you being banned again and having to re-register and return as ErikC.

So… has anyone made adjusted stats for a more elite Stormtrooper?

Inquisitor Tremayne said:

If you want them very powerful you could just not use them as Minions. Then again that makes a squad of them more of a chore for the GM (defeating the purpose of the Minions).

I simply added an attachment to the "Laminate" armor of Stormtroopers to give them Defense 1. I think that could make them a little tougher even as Minions. I don't know what else I would mess with without testing it out first since that could be enough. A little more skill with blasters perhaps?

The regular stormtroopers work well as is. You can adjust gear, such as armor or weapons as needed, to show different types like the sandtroopers or snowtroopers. Some special cases may need additional skills. Storm commandos would generally not be minions, I would say. And officers would also not be minions.

Yeah, ErikA, I think you are broadcasting your own preferences onto everybody. There are lots of stories to be told. Ambushing patrols doesn't have to be Al Qaida, it can be US Revolutionary War. You can be the good guy underdogs who haven't half the training of the baddies, but thrice the pluck. Or you can be Robin Hood's merry men, fighting with sticks and rusty daggers against well armed and trained guardsmen. Yeah, you might be 'elite' in the skill area, but that's because you're the protagonists. Doesn't equate to being better equipped or trained, nor to the villains being scary.

If Little John and his men come upon an equal numbers group of the Sherrif's men, are worried about their swords and armor, but beat them with courage, determination, and cunning, that's a good story.

You can also look at the Rebels vs. Imps as the 99% vs. the Elite. There's nothing wrong with being part of the masses if the oppressed masses are the thing you're championing. Of course your characters should still be cool leaders who rally everyone around them and overcome battle-hardened soldiers through wit or quick-thinking.

Or, more specifically for Edge of the Empire, you can be the guys just trying to survive and pay down your debts in a world of larger forces. EotE is about the gray area. I plan on having my group caught between the Empire and the Rebels, with neither side really all that interested in the plight of criminals.

Anyway, your point of view isn't wrong either, just saying its not the only way to roll.

Lunatic Pathos said:

Well, the Merry Men were famed users of the English/Welsh Longbow which if you are British instantly put you in mind of Agincourt where just 6000 English archers took on 36,000 Frenchmen including 10,000 knights in shining armour and beat them, killing 10,000 French for the loss of just 100 English.

It is… Difficult to overestimate just how much Brit mythology rates the Great Warbow.

In a way, the game designers helped me out a lot with this dilemma by creating strata of adversaries that have meta-mechanics in addition to the basic mechanics. So I tell my players:

"Nevermind the color of the armor and worry even less about the word "Stormtrooper" and listen to the title of the adversary, be they minions, rivals or Nemesis etc.

Fact is the Empire can call them "Elite" all they want, and I am sure a big chunk of them are, but in order to be an instrument of maximum lethality, you must have not only excellent training, excellent innate abilities and good gear, you also need experience. Nothinhg can replace that. Fresh new Stormtrooper recruits (or Clones if you wanna run it that way) are simply not going to be as good in a fight as seasoned veterans and Non-Coms with some time under their belts.

So, luckily I'm not forced by the system to have just "one flavor" of Stormies, that helps a lot.

In a way, the game designers helped me out a lot with this dilemma by creating strata of adversaries that have meta-mechanics in addition to the basic mechanics. So I tell my players:

"Nevermind the color of the armor and worry even less about the word "Stormtrooper" and listen to the title of the adversary, be they minions, rivals or Nemesis etc.

Fact is the Empire can call them "Elite" all they want, and I am sure a big chunk of them are, but in order to be an instrument of maximum lethality, you must have not only excellent training, excellent innate abilities and good gear, you also need experience. Nothinhg can replace that. Fresh new Stormtrooper recruits (or Clones if you wanna run it that way) are simply not going to be as good in a fight as seasoned veterans and Non-Coms with some time under their belts.

So, luckily I'm not forced by the system to have just "one flavor" of Stormies, that helps a lot.

That assumes that stormtroopers recruit right from the civilians as opposed to pulling from the already existing military, much like the Special Forces do in the US military. So, what a raw recruit to the stormtroopers wouldn't be just some civvie fresh out of basic, but someone with a few years in the military and a desire to be a member of the "Elite". So, they'd have been through basic, been through various duties, got through weeks or months of special training and then sent into the field under more experienced people.

Well, that's one way to recruit them, but I don't think the Empire does that for a number of reasons. The most important attribute a Stormie can possess isn't his (or her if you believe there are female Stormies) combat prowess, it's their fanaticism to the Emperor. Remember that these are his specific shock troopers - much like the Waffen SS in WWII. Regular soldiers who've served for a bit and proven themselves also run the risk of having been "polluted" against the New Order. Plus the recommendation/referral process and interface between the Imperial Army and the Stormies runs the risk of being compromised for various reasons.

No, far, far better to recruit promising kids and put them right into Stormie training, where you can teach them the art of war and inculcate the bejabbers out of them. That way if they wash out, they can be used somewhere by some other part of the New Order and so nothing is wasted.

His DNA could have easily been nabbed from one of his countless clones.

One can easily say that copies of copies begin to degrade. That is presumably why the kaminoans wanted Jango to stick around rather than take a syringe of blood at the start and send him on his way.

If this is how it works then the Emperor would need to find new donors in time, or perhaps they did try using the clones as stock and that's what led to the decline in quality over time.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

Also, sand and snow troopers are just regular stormtroopers in different gear.

So I was watching Rebels Recon and Pablo Hidalgo said by the time of rebels the clones have aged out of service. The stormtroopers at this point are the fanatical imperial loyalists.

I've tried to keep my Stormtroopers clones, always, never diluted by conscripts. Hints of this were dropped early on, one of the techmanuals supplies it as one of the rumors around the Stormtrooper program. I never assumed the accelerated aging was permanent, why not have it arrest itself at 20 something and then age normally after that? And it takes 10 years to create a batch, so if we kept them consistent from Prequel to Original series the Empire is on their 3rd decanted batch of clone troopers.

I like this approach for a few reasons for narrative purposes. For me the Rebellion is made up of old planetary defense forces, ie. Naboo....this explains their use of old, outmoded military material and why we have more military tradition outside of the clone wars where we only had a few high level commanding officers that weren't Jedi serving in the war. This also helps keep the core/midrim worlds loyal without using a heavy hand because they aren't risking themselves to fight another war. We only really see outer-rim abuses of Moffs mentioned and this makes sense as the Empire needs to '****' those worlds of raw materials to feed the core anyway.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

(don't let the wall of text distract you from the link below)

Although I'm the original poster (nearly 2 years ago) discusssing Stormtroopers as seperate from the Army and Navy, WEG-style, I've slowly been convinced that they are not a special branch, but the sole infantry of the Empire.

They are the descendants of Clone Troopers, which were the ONLY infantry of the Republic, fore-runner of the Empire. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", as you noted above, can easily be explaned by them being the best equipped and trained line infantry in the Galaxy. Their label as "shock troops" (suggesting there are other non-shock troops in the Empire) can also be explained away - ALL Imperial infantry could be considered shock troops due to the highly assault-oriented nature of Imperial infantry tactics. There are no defensive troops, well except for those poorly trained and cowardly black helmeted security guards.

I now think it is more easy to explain the different troops we see in the movies if we toss the WEG notions of Army & Navy and instead consider it all just one big military organization. With this in mind plus a new license on speculation with Disney tossing WEG to legendary status, I started examining all of the different Imperial soldiers we see in the movies. When I started organizing what I had into uniform groups, I noted some similarities in jobs noted by uniform colors. My notes grew too long to post here especially when adding photos, so I created a PDF.

Please examine and respond! Speculation on New Non-WEG Military Uniforms & Organization.

I'm all for tosing out weg crud. I'd prefer tosing it on a fire, but I'll take what I can get. .

I've stated it before, but since every video game, movie (fan or actual),board game and pretty much every other media uses stormies as the rank and file, no need for a separate infantry.

I'm all for tosing out weg crud. I'd prefer tosing it on a fire, but I'll take what I can get. .

I've stated it before, but since every video game, movie (fan or actual),board game and pretty much every other media uses stormies as the rank and file, no need for a separate infantry.

There is a LOT of good info from WEG. In fact in a lot of ways WEG is the ancestor of this version of Star wars. Not WotC.

The whole idea of the Inquisitorius is weg, as is COMPNOR, the Imperial Security Bureau(Agent Kallus) Hutt Kajidics, etc.

Yes weg did not scale well and the Jedi ended up over powered and a lot of other problems. But a lot of good came from weg as well.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

(don't let the wall of text distract you from the link below)

Although I'm the original poster (nearly 2 years ago) discusssing Stormtroopers as seperate from the Army and Navy, WEG-style, I've slowly been convinced that they are not a special branch, but the sole infantry of the Empire.

They are the descendants of Clone Troopers, which were the ONLY infantry of the Republic, fore-runner of the Empire. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", as you noted above, can easily be explaned by them being the best equipped and trained line infantry in the Galaxy. Their label as "shock troops" (suggesting there are other non-shock troops in the Empire) can also be explained away - ALL Imperial infantry could be considered shock troops due to the highly assault-oriented nature of Imperial infantry tactics. There are no defensive troops, well except for those poorly trained and cowardly black helmeted security guards.

I now think it is more easy to explain the different troops we see in the movies if we toss the WEG notions of Army & Navy and instead consider it all just one big military organization. With this in mind plus a new license on speculation with Disney tossing WEG to legendary status, I started examining all of the different Imperial soldiers we see in the movies. When I started organizing what I had into uniform groups, I noted some similarities in jobs noted by uniform colors. My notes grew too long to post here especially when adding photos, so I created a PDF.

Please examine and respond! Speculation on New Non-WEG Military Uniforms & Organization.

Except that doesn't fit with how we know Palpatine did things. He loooved to establish progressively elite cadres within the military and civilian services. This was so that career minded soldiers were always distracted from any "external concerns" by the shiny brass ring that was the next step up. Now, the Stormies are a notable exception to this because, again, unlike the basic "Imperial Army", they are Palpatine's troops, the literal hand of the Emperor, but keep in mind that even within their ranks there were shiny brass rings to reach for. If you were skilled and loyal to X extent as a Stormie, you could be a Snow Trooper. X+1, you could be a Scout, X+3 a Commando, X+10 an Imperial Guard, X+15 that elite cadre within the Imperial Guard we saw in Dark Empire etc. Always one more step to climb.

Something else worth considering is that Palpatine didn't rip apart the entire Republic Military and start over. This would have been silly and dangerous. Instead he co-opted those organizations (especially the Republic Navy) and part of the way he did it was to respect the thousands of years of naval tradition the Navy carried with it - which included it's peacock-proud officers and their endless love of ToE's and so forth. But even though Palpatine wasn't gonna mess with the Navy's traditions and love of structures and organization, he made sure every Imperial ship or installation of any note had at least a few Stormies on board, not just to act as elite troops, but also to act as a beacon for the ideals of the New Order and to take out any officer who strayed too far from their duty.

The idea of a basal, non-elite Imperial Army is harder to accept for most fans because they've never been seen on screen. But if such a thing didn't exist it would be silly for a number of reasons (not the least of which is that the majority of the Empire's "heavy" work in the Galaxy doesn't require expensively equipped, expensively trained, fanatical troops). If you want to have a New Order that everyone believes is working for them, you need to be able to see the faces of these soldiers and understand that they're human just like you. A faceless military simply doesn't encourage a civilian buy-in of the ideas behind the Empire, and while you can do a lot through fear alone, Palpatine came from political stock and he has always demonstrated a keen understanding that it takes more than fear to inspire loyalty.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

(don't let the wall of text distract you from the link below)

Although I'm the original poster (nearly 2 years ago) discusssing Stormtroopers as seperate from the Army and Navy, WEG-style, I've slowly been convinced that they are not a special branch, but the sole infantry of the Empire.

They are the descendants of Clone Troopers, which were the ONLY infantry of the Republic, fore-runner of the Empire. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", as you noted above, can easily be explaned by them being the best equipped and trained line infantry in the Galaxy. Their label as "shock troops" (suggesting there are other non-shock troops in the Empire) can also be explained away - ALL Imperial infantry could be considered shock troops due to the highly assault-oriented nature of Imperial infantry tactics. There are no defensive troops, well except for those poorly trained and cowardly black helmeted security guards.

I now think it is more easy to explain the different troops we see in the movies if we toss the WEG notions of Army & Navy and instead consider it all just one big military organization. With this in mind plus a new license on speculation with Disney tossing WEG to legendary status, I started examining all of the different Imperial soldiers we see in the movies. When I started organizing what I had into uniform groups, I noted some similarities in jobs noted by uniform colors. My notes grew too long to post here especially when adding photos, so I created a PDF.

Please examine and respond! Speculation on New Non-WEG Military Uniforms & Organization.

Except that doesn't fit with how we know Palpatine did things. He loooved to establish progressively elite cadres within the military and civilian services. This was so that career minded soldiers were always distracted from any "external concerns" by the shiny brass ring that was the next step up. Now, the Stormies are a notable exception to this because, again, unlike the basic "Imperial Army", they are Palpatine's troops, the literal hand of the Emperor, but keep in mind that even within their ranks there were shiny brass rings to reach for. If you were skilled and loyal to X extent as a Stormie, you could be a Snow Trooper. X+1, you could be a Scout, X+3 a Commando, X+10 an Imperial Guard, X+15 that elite cadre within the Imperial Guard we saw in Dark Empire etc. Always one more step to climb.

Something else worth considering is that Palpatine didn't rip apart the entire Republic Military and start over. This would have been silly and dangerous. Instead he co-opted those organizations (especially the Republic Navy) and part of the way he did it was to respect the thousands of years of naval tradition the Navy carried with it - which included it's peacock-proud officers and their endless love of ToE's and so forth. But even though Palpatine wasn't gonna mess with the Navy's traditions and love of structures and organization, he made sure every Imperial ship or installation of any note had at least a few Stormies on board, not just to act as elite troops, but also to act as a beacon for the ideals of the New Order and to take out any officer who strayed too far from their duty.

The idea of a basal, non-elite Imperial Army is harder to accept for most fans because they've never been seen on screen. But if such a thing didn't exist it would be silly for a number of reasons (not the least of which is that the majority of the Empire's "heavy" work in the Galaxy doesn't require expensively equipped, expensively trained, fanatical troops). If you want to have a New Order that everyone believes is working for them, you need to be able to see the faces of these soldiers and understand that they're human just like you. A faceless military simply doesn't encourage a civilian buy-in of the ideas behind the Empire, and while you can do a lot through fear alone, Palpatine came from political stock and he has always demonstrated a keen understanding that it takes more than fear to inspire loyalty.

Likely the imperial Army is what is used for most jobs in the core worlds where the people are pretty loyal to the Empire. With small garrisons of Stormtrooper back up.

The idea of a basal, non-elite Imperial Army is harder to accept for most fans because they've never been seen on screen.

Yep. The fact that they are never seen on screen even though (if they exist) they are conceivably the largest part of the Imperial Military, is very hard to accept. We see a large amount of Imperial uniformed military on screen including even mundane things like technicians, security guards, and gunners. We should have at least caught a glimpse of the regular Army if they are the most populous of the Imperial military. If GL had believed they existed, why wouldn't he have included even a glimpse of them? Instead proponents are left to completely create a large force including their uniform and gear out of near nothingness (using a vehicle crew's technician uniform and combining it with an olive colored Snowtrooper breastplate seen on a "General").

If you go for the "there is no Army" format, you have to accept there are hordes of local troops performing local duties under Imperial rule. Corellian and Alderaanian Defense Forces are still "Imperial" forces since they are members of the Empire. They just aren't part of the Imperial Military patroling and responding to flare ups around the Empire.

Personally I think the really stupid thing the EU came up with is Stormtroopers being their own corps. Plus them being the Empire's elite troops? When do we ever see these "army troopers"? We don't. The Imperial Navy Troopers? They're always operating the consoles: they're crew, not soldiers. A few RPGs mention them and beyond that they're never seen. If the Stormtroopers are their own thing we've reduced the Imperial Army to just vehicles.

In my book, stormtroopers aren't their own special part of the Imperial armed forces, they're the Empire's soldiers and unless the Empire has an Army and Navy with no infantry of their own (silly, right?) they fit in there somewhere.

At the end of the day, stormtroopers are more iconic and recognizable. If they have been changed to be the de facto Empire army I am fine with that. My players are going to be more interested in battling them rather than some non-descriptive army soldier. No skin off my back. At one time I would have related them more to marines, first in last out, but they work as regular troops too.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

(don't let the wall of text distract you from the link below)

Although I'm the original poster (nearly 2 years ago) discusssing Stormtroopers as seperate from the Army and Navy, WEG-style, I've slowly been convinced that they are not a special branch, but the sole infantry of the Empire.

They are the descendants of Clone Troopers, which were the ONLY infantry of the Republic, fore-runner of the Empire. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", as you noted above, can easily be explaned by them being the best equipped and trained line infantry in the Galaxy. Their label as "shock troops" (suggesting there are other non-shock troops in the Empire) can also be explained away - ALL Imperial infantry could be considered shock troops due to the highly assault-oriented nature of Imperial infantry tactics. There are no defensive troops, well except for those poorly trained and cowardly black helmeted security guards.

I now think it is more easy to explain the different troops we see in the movies if we toss the WEG notions of Army & Navy and instead consider it all just one big military organization. With this in mind plus a new license on speculation with Disney tossing WEG to legendary status, I started examining all of the different Imperial soldiers we see in the movies. When I started organizing what I had into uniform groups, I noted some similarities in jobs noted by uniform colors. My notes grew too long to post here especially when adding photos, so I created a PDF.

Please examine and respond! Speculation on New Non-WEG Military Uniforms & Organization.

This is very good stuff. I like.

One thing that it made me realize as I read it (specifically where you called out that the Empire ONLY has shock troops), is that with such a panoply of vehicles at their disposal from speeders to walkers to endless aircraft, they probably have a very large number of their military use cases already covered. They have FAR less need of footsoldiers than historical armies and even today we're moving further and further away from large numbers of infantry to smaller groups of highly trained soldiers. The chief reason for that is the superiority of airpower. And that's with a modest amount of air superiority that cannot be guaranteed. Prior to out and out rebellion, the Empire could pretty much guarantee overwhelming and unstoppable air superiority. How much of a regular army are you going to need when you have a Star Destroyer in orbit over their city? Your only needs are going to be special cases such as surprise raids and securing special objectives. I.e. things you want special shock troops for.

In my SW universe the stormtrooper are the rank and file foot soldiers of the empire. There is no army outside of the stormtrooper ranks. But the stormtroopers are the best equipped and trained rank and file foot soldiers in the galaxy. So others consider them elite.

(don't let the wall of text distract you from the link below)

Although I'm the original poster (nearly 2 years ago) discusssing Stormtroopers as seperate from the Army and Navy, WEG-style, I've slowly been convinced that they are not a special branch, but the sole infantry of the Empire.

They are the descendants of Clone Troopers, which were the ONLY infantry of the Republic, fore-runner of the Empire. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", as you noted above, can easily be explaned by them being the best equipped and trained line infantry in the Galaxy. Their label as "shock troops" (suggesting there are other non-shock troops in the Empire) can also be explained away - ALL Imperial infantry could be considered shock troops due to the highly assault-oriented nature of Imperial infantry tactics. There are no defensive troops, well except for those poorly trained and cowardly black helmeted security guards.

I now think it is more easy to explain the different troops we see in the movies if we toss the WEG notions of Army & Navy and instead consider it all just one big military organization. With this in mind plus a new license on speculation with Disney tossing WEG to legendary status, I started examining all of the different Imperial soldiers we see in the movies. When I started organizing what I had into uniform groups, I noted some similarities in jobs noted by uniform colors. My notes grew too long to post here especially when adding photos, so I created a PDF.

Please examine and respond! Speculation on New Non-WEG Military Uniforms & Organization.

Except that doesn't fit with how we know Palpatine did things. He loooved to establish progressively elite cadres within the military and civilian services.

I honestly don't recall any of that from the movies or TCW. I recall an elite guard, but other than that I just saw the same normal senior officers and authority figures you normally see.

This is very good stuff. I like.

One thing that it made me realize as I read it (specifically where you called out that the Empire ONLY has shock troops), is that with such a panoply of vehicles at their disposal from speeders to walkers to endless aircraft, they probably have a very large number of their military use cases already covered. They have FAR less need of footsoldiers than historical armies and even today we're moving further and further away from large numbers of infantry to smaller groups of highly trained soldiers. The chief reason for that is the superiority of airpower. And that's with a modest amount of air superiority that cannot be guaranteed. Prior to out and out rebellion, the Empire could pretty much guarantee overwhelming and unstoppable air superiority. How much of a regular army are you going to need when you have a Star Destroyer in orbit over their city? Your only needs are going to be special cases such as surprise raids and securing special objectives. I.e. things you want special shock troops for.

Thanks!

Your second paragraph said it so much better then I did in my brief reasoning.

For my own games, I'm very happy with the setup I came up with. I'm especially happy that for a brief period it isn't contradicting any official canon either.

The ONLY thing I don't like from a game point of view is this means there aren't less powerful Imperial mooks (Army Troopers) to throw at players. But, I suppose I can make the security guards (previously naval troopers) more common and make them the mooks found guarding outposts, ships, space stations, etc.