Last night in my game the enemy used suppression fire on the players (mainly because they couldn't SEE the players but knew they were moving up).

Now my players looked at me like I'd just rolled 100 but declared "Nah he hits you anyway...". Why? Because the rules for Pinning are quite nasty.

Firstly people in the region or entering the region being suppressed have to make a -20 WP check or become pinned. If they become pinned they either have to seek cover or stay in cover. They can only take half actions and may categorically NOT move towards the source of the fire.

After the initial test once they reach cover they can make normal WP tests to shake off pinning or +30 WP tests if they are no longer under fire.

I have some questions therefore:

1: People dashing into the Suppression area. I have taken the rules to mean they also have to make a check to avoid being pinned is this correct?

2: Naval shields. If you hunker down behind them they count as cover. If you are carrying one and become pinned you stay cowering (this bit is fine) however should you be allowed to use you half action to move towards the Source of fire as you are taking your cover with you?

3: I have taken the suppression to last 1 round after which is is reapplied if they wish. Pinning however lasts more than one turn. If the enemy continues suppressing the area what happens:

a) everyone makes the test again at -20

b) New people in the area make the test again, as do people who passed the pinning check at -20, People who failed the check take a half action and make a wp check to throw off the pinning at their WP

c) New people make a roll at -20, People who failed make the test at base WP, people who passed ignore it.

d) If they Do NOT reapply it, new people are not pinned, people who failed the check start making WP+30 checks to throw the pinning off.

Finally 4:

Do you think it was unfair for the enemy to use this tactic as they could not see the approaching player but knew they were there, and were in a prepared position?

My players have been steamrollering most combats with ease, however the current enemies are both intelligent and not a little skilled at what they are doing, and as such this fight was supposed to be a challenge. My players seemed unimpressed however.

Mawdrigen said:

They arn't your players, they are THE PLAYERS and they are the ENEMY

Turpin said:

I find this to be a reprehensible attitude that seems to be permeating the DH forums.

Gaming is a social activity and if you see your players as the enemy then you have a very warped view of gaming.

Reposting this as the forum seems to have messed up quoting

I dont' hold that view myself... But the players enemies do..

But anyhow anything on the pinning questions?

Mawdrigen said:

If the area is still being suppressed then yes, however I'd personally rule that if their movement isn't overlong (subjective) and they're moving from cover to cover that I wouldn't apply the -20 to their rolls.

Mawdrigen said:

I'd allow the half-action movement. There are a few training films out there of police and military forces using ballistic shields to advance while under fire.

Mawdrigen said:

I'd go for between b and c myself depending on the situation.

Mawdrigen said:

No I don't think it was unfair, though I do wonder how they were suppressing the area the pcs were in if they couldn't see them. If, for example, they were firing blindly into the dark or into smoke I'd question just how effective the suppression would be and perhaps drop the difficulty of the roll.

Evilref said:

Smoke actually. They could see one of them (the guy behind the shield) but were for the majority hosing the corridor mouth for effect. The lack of visibility I took into account by leveying negatives on the roll to see if anyone got hit, and by treating the two seperate instances of suppression as only one suppression field.

Ta for the response (you've probably guessed it's Ex-Rurisk here)

Mawdrigen said:

Ahh, if it was a narrow corridor then I'd have absolutely no hesitation in applying the -20 modifier on them. There are a bunch of other things I take into account with suppression (size of the magazine, experience of the person doing the suppression etc) but the area being suppressed is a major factor in how much lead is thrown into each foot of space.

We should swap notes on our DH campaigns, I have Ritch K in mine, amongst other people you know.

To give a better description of the area then

It was an almost wedge shaped room with the "defenders" at the Wide end behind Concrete blocks. At the Thin end a corridor enterered at 90 degrees. The Two defenders suppressing were using Autoguns, but there were two guys with lasguns and a cult initiate with a meltagun (which was at long range so wasn't very accurate)

The room was basically the last line of defence before the players reached the Ritual they are supposed to be disrupting, hence the prepared position and heavy ordinance (even if the likely hood of the guy hitting was practically Nil!)

Yes Note swapping would be a good plan, and may be literally possible as I'm writing this campaign with the intent of making it available on the Web

In that case I'd allow the suppression but also allow others to move up behind the player with the naval shield and then break out into the room proper.

Drop me an email at my radiocallsign at gmail and we'll swap notes.

First on Pinning:

Assuming that the firing squad has some information of the wereabouts of the players (from now on they will be called the ENEMY), it is reasonably to apply pinning as normal -20 WP, who wants to jump into a hail of bullets?

I agree with evilref, but maybe i will apply a WP to move between covers(+0 or +10?), and some penalties if the fire is specially heavy (like stubbers or bolters or a bunch of crazed firing fullauto, a lot of bullets is scary).

If the shield is holding the fire pretty good I will agree that he/she can try to move with the half action, but if the shield starts to tear apart I will say that they will have to find new cover or risk the shredding.

It is not unfair to use it, but remember pinning is not only useful to keep the players there, you could be buying time for reinforcements, or lobbing grenades to them after all they cant move and do a lot of nasty stuff, after all you have them where you want EM!.

Players are the enemy as the master is the evildoer who wants the players not to powerlevel, exploit rules o come up with weird **** that the evil master has to repair.

Its a fight of willpowers and Psykers always wins

The Psyker Won this one certainly...

Weapon Jinx.

Turning off ALL tech in 50M over and over combined with a lowtech sword charge in the pitch blackness was how the player dealt with it. She even manage to jam the melta!

Which was fine, they had a problem and fixed it with tactics

I agree with evilref, but maybe i will apply a WP to move between covers(+0 or +10?), and some penalties if the fire is specially heavy (like stubbers or bolters or a bunch of crazed firing fullauto, a lot of bullets is scary).

On the other hand side, certain gear or abilities possessed by players may easily outweigh that. Pinning a guy in Power Armour with an autogun would be a little silly.

So, to make up a few modifiers on the fly:

-Standard: -20

-Pinning by Heavy Weapon : -10

-Pinning by Bolter (or equivalent): -20

-Pinning by more than one person: -10 per additional person up to three

-friends nearby: +10 per two friends

-low visibility: +10

-Carapace (or equivalent) Armour: +20

-Power Armour and/or force field: +50

-Unnatural Toughness: +30 per multiplier above 1

-Commissar (or other person with a "You have failed me for the last time" attitude) nearby: +30

The positive modifiers may seem a little high, but remember that the base is a -20, meaning that your average character succeeds only on a 10.

I think there are some traits you can take at rank 4 (on average) that help with pinning as well.

I like your players solution, rather than complaining about you exploiting a rule they looked at their toolkit and overcame the enemy. Another option available to them is one listed for the cultist, lobing grenades. People laying down suppressive fire are stuck where they are while they are shooting. The characters may be pinned, but unless the bad guys are in a bunker chuck a grenade at them.

Salcor

Mawdrigen said:

I was under the impression that the errata changed Weapon Jinx to only effect weapons that were specifically targetted by the Psyker?

Emprah_Horus said:

Errata: "You reach into a nearby weapon with your mind to disrupt its function. Any one weapon within range that is not in the primitive weapon category instantly jams."

If you leave it at that, then sure. But when you read the Overbleed on Weapon Jinx you can effect multiple weapons in one go. For every 5 points you exceed the threshold you may extend the range by 10 meters, or effect an additional weapon. But yeah, no longer does Weapon Jinx also make the lights go out as well, or your micro-bead cease functionning.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Grenades, lots of them

Bragollach said:

A person wearing power armour of course. Its actually pretty satisfying running headlong into a hail of bullets only to shrug them off like it was a gentle spring rain. >

Satisfying until they break out the MP Las-cannons that is. Then its not so funny anymore. : /

Emprah_Horus said:

I'll have to check that... Because that would make a BIG difference!

This team had grenades but the room was a bit too long to use them, and they had no launcher. In the end the Swordcharge did it though!

I like the table that Cifer did. It sounds pretty good and I think that keeps the spirit of a good system don't say no, assign modifiers instead (minus or pluses).

As for Weapon Jinx it was also used to disrupt cameras or anything with some kind of circuitry, now is only weapons.

As for the overbleed if there were a lot of weapons ( "a galaxy of guns comes to mind") it would be pretty difficult and besides dangerous if you are rolling multiple power dices.

Then again ADMECH players will not be very happy the intrusion of the warp in the wepons!!!!.