Hey there, in ToI, the ghost ability is intoduced as "A figure with ghost cannot be targeted by a melee attack from any adjacent squares" does this mean that reach actually cancels ghost for some unknow reason, or is this just another case of Decent VS Logic?

As long as you aren't adjacent, you may hit 'Ghost' affected critters with melee attacks.

Chilitoke said:

No. It does not say "Reach cancels Ghost". It says (paraphrased, but pretty accurately) "you can't hit a ghost from an adjacent square with a melee attack." It doesn't say anything about hitting a ghost from a non-adjacent space with a melee attack now, does it? Reach does not cancel ghost, but a non adjacent melee attack (which by definition must be using Reach) is not affected by ghost.

As far as I can see there is no Descent vs Logic question here? Thematically there is an issue though... Perhaps the extra velocity inherent in an attack at the end of a longer Reach (the point at the outside end of a stick moves much faster than the point at the inside end of the stick when the stick is swung in a circle) disturbs the ghostly aether more or something?

Corbon said:

When you attack with reach, you do not attack from an adjacent square...thus reach works with Ghost...

Aamaxu said:

Not quite accurate. When you attack with Reach you might be attacking from a non-adjacent square. You can still attack adjacent squares with Reach.

So it is important to differentiate. It is not the Reach that cancels or counters the Ghost, it is the being in a non-adjacent square.

Thx people now i just need to convince my OL that it's okay to reach them bloddy ghost!

btw in RtL there is this dungeon, with a demon on the other side of a crystal that one need to smash before killing it, the fun thing is the demon is trapped behind the crystal, so he's just stuck there due to the crystal bloking movement, any changes to this yet?

PS in the dungeon "cursed fountain" the named master beastman dosent take damage untill you take a dip in far away fountain, are the OL allow to put tihs beastman next to a ruble in a 2xsqaure hallway, thus bloking the way in to the fountain?

Chilitoke said:

Are you talking about Level #24: Eternal Prisoner?

He's stuck there only until the Heroes step on the four encounter markers, which they have to do to open the red rune locked door, and then he's free. But that doesn't stop him from attacking straight down that long hallway and hitting the Heroes. I had Eldritch at Silver and was making life fairly hard for the Heroes. Plus the Heroes can kill him while he's trapped in the crystal, since the level card says attacks can both enter and leave the summoning circle. So I'm a little unsure of why they need to change anything to that level?

As for the Cursed Fountain one, I think that can happen. There's ways around it such as Acrobat, Shadowsoul, Knockback, and Telekinesis but that is in fact a problem with that level.

Chilitoke said:

Ghost doesn't even make sense logically. Why would I be unable to hit something with an axe, but arrows can hit it just fine? Even arrows fired at point-blank range, just like the axe?

I tried to explain or double-check game rules with common-sense logic before, for games beyond a certain complexity it just doesn't work

SkittlesAreYum said:

Sure it does. Its because when the arrow is flying through the air it become magnetically charged due to disrupting the local electromagnetic field and therefore disrupts the normally electromagnetically weak forces involved in a Ghost creature. The axe doesn't have the same effect.

SCIENCE!!

Big Remy said:

It is well known that the designers of ToI, Steinhurst and Wilson, actually tested that in a lab before the official playtest phase. Stephen Hawking was present as scientific advisor.

The whole beauty of the Ghost ability is that it forces melee characters to think a little outside the box. It's not just a question of who 'who has the bigger axe' anymore. Thus Ghost may or may not be logically inconsistent, but it sure makes it more challenging (and therefore more fun) to play melee characters.

It may not be a big change for the average melee character, but any change that introduce some more advanced tactics is a plus in my book.

And anyway, I agree with the scientific argument, it totally makes sense

Actually, if you take 'Ghost' to mean 'displaced image' instead of 'ethereal', it makes sense...you can't melee attack from an adjacent square because you can't tell where the image is in relation to the actual creature.

Reach would be able to target, because of the extended range. And for a ranged attack, obviously the displaced image is close enough to the actual creature to target at a distance.

Okay, so that was pulled completely out of nowhere. Still, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

Daemnor said:

Uh...no, it doesn't. A Reach weapon works even when you don't know where the target is because you make some sort of sweeping attack...but you have to be farther away to make it work? And actual AoE attacks (such as, say, Sweep) confer no such advantage?

Several of the cases work in a way that is exactly opposite what one would expect given that explanation.

Sorry, but the Ghost ability just doesn't make thematic sense any way you slice it. We know that however it works, it only works when you're close to the monster, because a Reach weapon works from 2 spaces away but not when you're adjacent. And yet, a ranged or magic weapon does work when you're adjacent, and it can't be because it's capable of attacking from farther away, because that's true of Reach weapons as well. So it has to be range-dependent AND effective only against melee attacks due to some property other than the distance the attack comes from. Good luck with that.

I've always pictured Ghost being a 'sight' thing. When you're up close to a Ghosted model, they're see-through. You cannot see them, and thus cannot hit them. If you're one space away, they're solid looking again, and so can hit them. Though I suppose that idea fails when you realize that Ghost only works for Melee (in other words, an Archer or Mage can be adjacent to a Ghosted model and still hit them).

-shnar

Big Remy said:

I seem to recall a similar question being raised about the original Descent quest that had the invulnerable Beastman and the Blade of Light. Someone pointed out that the Guardian could go stand on the square where the heroes got the Blade from and then they couldn't possibly win the scenario (without Acrobat or Telekinesis, etc.) As I recall, the official answer was that the OL may not deliberately take action that would make a hero victory impossible. Basically a "c'mon guys, play fair" appeal. So as long as the party has Acrobat, Telekinesis or some other skill to get past the invulnerable Beastman, you're good. If the party has no such abilities, the OL can't leave the Beastman in that space.

This might seem like something of a hand-wavey ruling, but really if you're not prepared to play fair with your friends, then why are you wasting your time pretending this game will be fun?

Yeah, there is precedent for that in the FAQ. The ruling that you can't play Crushing Block next to any obstacle/token that blocks movement to prevent the Heroes from moving forward was made to prevent the OL from making a level/Quest impossible to win.

I never really thought about the Guardian in the Blade of Light Quest, but there is actually a ruling in the new FAQ that deals with a related issue:

Dungeon Level 14: The Fountain of Life
If an invulnerable monster blocks a path, the heroes may move through that monster.

One could make an argument that this could be expanded to cover the Guardian/Blade of Light situation. In that case,it could be ruled that the Heroes could walk through the Guardian and pick up Soul Biter.

Chilitoke said:

Mechanically it seems to be the inverse of Shadowcloak, so I can understand its presence in the game. In terms of logic, I always thought of it like this:

The Ghostly creature must make itself corporeal sometimes so that it can hurt the heroes. Apparently in Terrinoth these creatures are pretty smart about not becoming corporeal when the big guy with the axe right beside them is about to swing down, but if the enemy is attacking with reach or with a ranged weapon, maybe the Ghost creature wasn't expecting to be in danger (if the attack misses you can claim he went ghosty again in the nick of time.) Either he wasn't paying attention to the attacker, or his reaction time wasn't quite fast enough to go incorporeal in time.

Steve-O said:

An inverse Shadowcloak would block all attacks from adjacent spaces, not just melee ones.

And the presence of Ghost in the game is actually rather bizarre, natural complement or not, because it makes it categorically impossible to kill certain monsters unless you have the right equipment. If a monster has Shadowcloak, you always have the option of getting adjacent to it, no matter what weapon you're using. Even if an ability made a monster completely immune to ranged and magic attacks, all heroes have the ability to make unarmed melee attacks if they really want.

But you can't even theoretically hurt a monster with Ghost unless you have a ranged, magic, or Reach weapon. For example, if you play the quest where the heroes start split up, if any doesn't have a suitable weapon (or money to buy one), the OL can theoretically spawn a pair of Shades, block a corridor, and trap that hero there until help arrives (I think--haven't specifically checked for valid spawning locations or anything). The Ghost ability often does nothing at all (because you would've killed the unit with ranged/magic/Reach attacks anyways, or can easily do so without wasting actions) but is incredibly powerful in special situations. That's weird , and probably bad for the game, even completely ignoring thematic issues.

Steve-O said:

So when attack comes from farther away, they have less time to react?

And people using ranged/magic weapons from adjacent squares stand farther away than people using Reach weapons from the same squares?

And if that's the explanation, why can't you use a Guard order to interrupt them while they're corporeal? If they can sit right next to you and attack every turn without ever giving you a chance to counterattack, why not use the same techniques from a distance?

Antistone said: