I am a little surprised at the lack of success with the Firespray. I actually wasn't sure I was going to buy one, but was glad to win one at a Kessel Run. I have had a blast playing with it and also been really successful.

The only time the Firespray has been awful for me has been when I have overspent on it. As long as I keep the upgrades that I use low, then I have no trouble doing well. In fact, I am already planning lists involving 2 Firesprays.

It may be that they suit my playstyle. With wave 1, I typically played 3 ship Rebel builds. While those are seen as weaker, I did make it to the finals of 2 Kessel Runs with 3 ship Rebels.

Anyways, I when I play the Firespray, I primarily play Krassis with an Ion Cannon and a Seismic Charge. Then I sometimes add a Gunner or Missile, but just as often not. At just 40-45 points, I can easily add 4 TIEs to come along and support him. Krassis's ability means that he can evade every turn and still have a boosted attack. I can use the Ion Cannon to setup easy shots for my TIEs. The Seismic Charge is brilliant. I can do damage without rolling dice or using an action.

For me the Firespray plays like a large X-Wing, with double the toughness and an Ion Cannon to setup the rest of my ships. There is nothing wrong with that.

Cid_MCDP said:

Again, purely my own opinion, I think the new Pilot talents/upgrades are the main cause. Now you can go beyond building a chump squad around Wedge and Vader. Now you've got Tycho, Turr, Soontir, Han, Krassis, among others that can make for a really effective 1-2 punch that was almost non-existent in Wave 1. Add onto that the upgrades like Stealth Device, Push the limit, etc, and you can really trick out your higher pilots. Stealth Device helps with Wedge's main downfall, his defense. And keep in mind the Elite Pilot Talents generally only occur on the higher pilot skills, so you won't be able to use PtL unless you're running a higher skill pilot. (I know, I know, Black Squad, Green squad, etc, but I'm speaking generally.) I think this is why you're seeing fewer ships/higher skills.

Cid_MCDP said:

Variety is always good. I'm curious to see where the meta goes as well. Wave 2 brings lots of interesting possibilities and choices, some of which have yet to be discovered.

Cid_MCDP said:

I think you're dead-on with this assessment. Awings without missiles are like flies, they're annoying but don't do much. You almost need to run some type of missiles on Awings much like Ion Cannon on Ywings in order for them to be effective and worth their points in your squad. Their 2 attack dice really don't make them a very effective attacker, although 3 defense dice and stealth make them very tough to destroy.

Ok, large ship discussion:

I don't know how your Kessel Runs ran, or what your experience is with the large bases, but from what I have found, they tend to lose their actions over half of the time during the combat rounds. Avoiding other ships and asteroids proves to be just too much for the YT/Firespray. That is why I hesitate to put upgrades like Marksmanship or the Millenium Falcon Title card on them, because it is just too easy as the opponent to be able to block all of the movements they can take so that they won't be able to take their actions. And when you trick them out with missiles, you almost need to use those missiles immediately for 2 main reasons:

1. You can usually target lock early, when you have fewer ships in your way and can plan your initial route through the asteroids, so that you can take your action to target lock. Being able to perform a target lock later on in the game becomes increasingly difficult as maneuvering becomes more complicated.

2. You have to use your front firing arc in order to use secondary weapons for both large ships. It is much easier to have an opponent in your front firing arc in the opening rounds than it is later on in the game, especially at the ranges listed on the secondary weapons.

I'm not saying it's impossible later on, just that as the rounds become later, it becomes more difficult to pull off, especially before the ship is destroyed. And, in my playing, they haven't lasted nearly as long as they should have for their points. Maybe they fit your playstyle better, but for me, I prefer to spend the points on more TIEs.

hothie said:

to add on, it is also very easy to range 1 them due to their large bases, and even without mentioning the lack of side firing arcs for the Firespray, when you have upwards of 2-3 ships being able to range 1 it every turn, you are going to have big problems staying alive, even with all that hp. They do play pretty well in smaller games (50-70 ish games), but the more points you play, the poorer they get

hothie said:

I would say that at least initially, my experience matched this. I was accustomed to maneuvering my ships in small clusters and really struggled to not run into my own ships, let alone asteroids and the enemy. However, with more play I have been having a better time of it. I have made it through my last few games without more than 1 or 2 collisions, some with none at all. That being said, I would still avoid upgrades that require actions with them as they are still more prone to action loss than most. Missiles are probably better spent on other platforms.

With the Firespray I have found myself making much more use of the Straight 4 move than I have with other ships. It really helps to get separation and generally will put someone in my rear arc. I think people focus too much on the fact that the Firespray can't shoot 360 like the YT-1300. It still has twice the fire arc of every other ship in the game.

I was actually concerened that swarming a large ships base to deny actions would be too easy. But like you, I have noticed that with the influx of some Wave 2 ships and upgrades squads are trending smaller and you see fewer Academy/Rookie pilots. Certainly a 3 ship Rebel build can't waste maneuvers trying to swamp you every turn without exposing himself to the rest of your ships.

Good points, shmitty. I have thought about builds trending towards fewer ships being better for maneuvering the large ships, and I think you're right.

Another random point about large base ships; it takes 2 Ion cannon hits to ionize it. With wave 2 builds, I have yet to see anyone make a 2 Y-wing build or a 2-Firespray build, both with Ion cannons. So if you do run a large ship, I wouldn't expect to see it get ionized. Although I would love to show up to a random tourney with a 2 Ywing Rebel Wave 2 build, just to see if anyone runs a large ship so I could ionize it.

And, I haven't stated this yet, but thank you to everyone for chiming in to this discussion. I think we are all learning a lot from each others' experience.

The biggest problem with the Firespray seems to be what's also wrong with the Y-Wing: dodge dice. Unlike the Millenium Falcon the Firespray doesn't have the hit-points to withstand the concentrated fire. With the bigger base it also makes it a bigger target. The appeal of being a bigger target and a greater point-sink on your list doesn't help any.

But I think… I don't have my cards in front of me, but doesn't Kath with Heavy Cannons and a Mercenary gunner essentially let your firespray fire proton torpedoes out of the front arc each turn?

One list I wanted to make was designed around that arrangement with the Firespray and a pair of stealth-equipped TIE Advanceded as bodyguards. They would either try to herd the rebels away from Kath for her to engage with her enhanced shooting or get on the tail of anyone focus-attacking Kath.

Of all the goodies we got in Wave 2, I think mines are the most useless upgrade. :

Norsehound said:

Mines are practicle if you know how to use them.

Seismac charge (droped when you reveal your dial, then explodes at the end of ativation phase) 2 points

Proximity Mines puts a giant astroid down where if you fly through it, your going to roll 3 dice and take whatever you get… 3 ponts

In a tournement setting/standard game, you can either spread out your force to try to navigate the astroid feild (but fail to have very much concentrated fire) or you can run your pilots in a tight castle like formation down either side of the board. The mines in my oppinion are more devastating to a swarm team then assualt missles. Why? becasue lets look at the swarms lots of low pilot skills, so your can besure when your opponent flew behind you, that your seismic charge will hit atleast the lower pilots. very handy for knocking out the stealth genarators out of your opponents ships (also, unless you crash, teh mine falls 1 behind you, and if you go 1 straight, the mine will now be a total distace of a 3 straight manuever, and knowing that range 1 is only 2.5 of a template, you clear the explosion insead of guessing -though I would totally lose a shield to deal 1 damage to Dark curse, AND take out that fricken stealth device)… The Seismic charge is very cheap and can be very effective, not to mention it doesnt even take an action to drop.

Though Proximity mines are another tactic. they arent meant for so much as trying to get you to drop one right before your opponent lands on it, or near it… But to drop one in the middle of one of the those vallys on the sides. take this example. I go in a mirror and set my force straight up against my opponents allong one of the sides. round 1, I fly up, drop a mine. If I did it correctly, his low level goons wont be able to kiogran as they will either hit me and take a stress, or completly pass me and land on the mine (which any smart player would know the chances of doing a perfect kiogran turn between the recently dropped mine and the firespray are very very small) Im also a smart player, so I know to have my guys move slow, and try to block his higher pilots from kiograning (if he has any) So right now, he has one of 2 viable options

1. move slow, take some range one shots, then next turn, face they fury ahead (I dont think anyone is going to be willing to sacrifice any of their pilots to the mine -could easily be the death of a tie fighter or tie advance) So the next round, he now realizes hes in a grave posision, he could either lose a pilot, or he could bale out. He will have to either send his force into the astroids at unfavorable posisitions, or send one his pilots to his most certain doom. (which means you spent 3 points to get rid of atleast 12) if he didnt choose to send a sacrifice, then you had probable just kiogran and are now shooting at his back.

2.He could see the mine and realize whats about to happen, and send some of his forces into the astroid feilds (at favorable angles) however, he will more then likly not be able to shoot with a couple, and unless he flew into an astroid (assuming you placed astroids to enforce this plan) you will be able to shoot at some of his guys range 1. his fly through of the astroids is sure to mess up any formations he was attempting to fly, and will spread his force out bad. (the achilles heal of a swarm is once the formation is brocken, its a mess to try to put back together.

So in my oppinion, the Mines can do something really really amazing, but require tactics, and knowledge of your opponent and where and how he can move. Its also good to know all of the disctances for oppening manuvers to know when you may get your first shot, to know when to go slow and when to go fast. Though allot of that also depends on your opponent and how he manuevers. I won one of the games in the K-R solely because I knew to stay out of the missle range on turn 1 with my ties, the max speed I could fly was 3. (darth vader and temptest with concussions) turn two my swarm flew fast (right where I figured his 2 forward would be. My castle of ties mopped actionless vader and temptest off the starfield on the first round of shooting (he could only fly 5 straight, or 1 soft to avoid my ships)

Bottom line, seismic charges are amazing against lowerskill pilots, and Proximety mines are good against swarms to disrupt. Seismics are basicly a 2 point device that garuntees you to deal 1 damage against anyone who flies too close behind you while you still have full actions and shots. for only 2 and 3 points, you cant go wrong with them.

Like I said i tried mines twice. The first time, I had my Firespray in the middle, and my ties on the edges of the board, knowing that i was going to deploy my mine. But then i outsmarted myself and turned Fel into the middle of the board, where his squad was. Next round i dropped the mine, then flew Fel right into it, killing him. And that was right before his Wedge would have hit it.

The next time i was facing another Rebel squad. He avoided the mine altogether, but it definitely disrupted his squad, as he flew at all angles to try and avoid it. he was flying into the asteroids and each other, so it worked for breaking up his squad cohesion for sure, even if it didn't detontate.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, for me they were hit and miss. (rimshot)

Off-topic slightly:

I know this is a rules question, but would a proximity mine take the stealth device off of someone? I don't have the rules cards for mines, so I'm not sure if it counts as an "attack." Stealth requires you are hit by an "attack" to be disabled.

Thematically, it seems like you have to be "discovered" by the enemy for your stealth to be stripped from you. That is, not just any damage, such as overlapping obstacles would strip your extra defense die since running into an asteroid is not an "attack."

magadizer said:

Card text says, "hit from an Attack" as you pointed out. Hitting an asteroid definitely isn't an Attack, and as the charges both make use of the highlighted word "Detonation" like that's something significant, I'd say it depends on whether the Slave 1 handout/ brochure thing actually classifies Detonations as attacks. I didn't win one, so I can't say either way, but I'm guessing no.

I don't believe it would, as Assault Missiles splash damage or rolling over and Asteroid would also not "break" the Stealth Device. It says when you take Damage from an Attack not when you take Damage.

The reason I'm bringing it up is that Torresse used breaking the stealth device on Dark Curse as a potential way of employing the mine tactically. I don't think that is possible with a strict interpretation of the cards. However, like I said you need to see the wroding of the mine rules card. Anyone have that available, or can point to where it is posted online? I searched for it yesterday and couldn't find it.

Running into things like asteriods and other ships should not take out the stealth device. Taking splash damage from an Attack in my oppion would take out the stealth device. The damage from the splash affect would have not occured if the attack and or action was never preformed. The attack still causes the damage even if it was not dirrectly aimed at the intended target. Players are also spending points to purchase these weapons that have these damaging affects. Taking a hit from an Attack would seem to include taking damage from an Attacks affect.

This rule may need to be questioned and added to the FAQ's.

Agreed, Ancient Angel. To me, the Assault Missile thing removes Stealth because it is, after all, an Attack, regardless of splash damage or a direct hit. I can see where folks might try and make a case that the splash damage are just Hits, but they result directly from the initial Attack. Can't imagine it'd get FAQed any other way, but who knows. I've said stuff like that about GW rules in the past too…

It doesn't really matter to me either way, but I do think they should include it on the FAQ. I could see the argument made that the spash damage doesn't count, because you are not the ship being targeted. I think that makes sense thematically. On the other hand, if your stealth device is damaged, it doesn't matter whether it happened because you were targeted or it just got hit by debris.

Either way it works as long as the ruling is clear. To be consistent, I will probably play at home (until official clarification is made) that the stealth device can only be removed if you are rolling green dice. If you suffer damage without having to roll to evade, then you do not lose the device.

On a related note, I hope they release version 2 of the FAQ concurrently with the Wave 2 ships being made available. After all, they have essentially had an open playtesting period with the Kessel run ships being out there, and lots of questions and discussions already requiring clarification.

Nice write-up, Doug. You definitely put a lot of thought in this.

hothie said:

Due to the effects of the Assault Missile, Speaking for the Empire now. I think that a lot of the squads will be comprised of ships/pilots that function better as a "lone wolf" -- TIE Interceptors mainly, and keep the squads out of the effective range for collateral damage. Only forming up once the Assault Missiles have been spent for a counter-attack. I feel that ships that have these missiles will be the HVTs of the game, akin to a Y-Wing (with the requisite ion cannon).

It may just be me. The thing I can't seem to wrap my head around, without any "official" input, is the idea of a Shield Upgrade for the rank 'n file TIE Fighters and Interceptors. *shrugs* It will definitely help in their short-term survivablity, is for sure.

To clear up the bomb question, The only thing in the Firespray insert about it says: "Bomb Upgrade cards are not secondary weapons." Obviously they aren't primary weapons either, and none of the verbage talks about the bombs being an attack, or attacking. They simply say the bombs "detonate" as listed on the card. And since the bombs do not require the firespray to do anything during the combat round (when attacking occurs), I'd conclude they are not an attack, and really should be treated like a more powerful asteroid. So I would say that they would not strip the Stealth device off of Dark Curse.

@Hothie,

the most luck I've had with a large based ship is using it in support. I keep a yt along the board edges now to force opponents into the fighters firing arcs. This is some what affective.

i agree with you that the large ships hardly get an action because of bumping. Also most of the Kessel runs I played I just bumped the slave 1 with Arvel and blasted it at range one.

I haven't used any of the named pilots since then because I've had incredible luck using the green squadron pilots and push the limit. I've also used both of them with assault missiles. I've only missed once. Dealing two damage to an entire squad at times. Then letting the X-Wings pick off the damaged TIEs. The real down side to this tactic is that the splash damage doesn't get rid of stealth device.

I've also used the engine upgrade on grey squadron pilots with ion cannons. I've found it amazing when you boost out of range of other ships and then fire back with that ion canon.

I have found that people that won A-wings and YT100s aren't using boost enough still falling back on that focus action. The players that are boosting are doing some amazing things like, boosting out of firing arcs and range, boosting into range one, using PTL to boost and get a focus, or turn and boost to avoid the stress token.

Which brings me to fel. Dare devil on this guy is sick. Being able to turn around 180 and still get a focus, sometimes still at range one, can overwhelm most new players. I honestly think this 30 pts is better spent here than on a Vader.

One thin I'm still struggling with is the right number of squints to field in a TIE squad? I'm leaning twards two but I know a guy playing five of them and cleaning house. I have yet to go against him. Also I haven't seen all of his games just hearing things second hand.

@Picasso: YES! Running Arvel into a Firespray-31 is THE way to go!

@Hothie: I second your comment about "Fel's Wrath" being underestimated. I tried him out in an Imp on Imp match (we both wanted to use our TIE Interceptors). He chose Fel, who was dangerous, but not terrible. Then I got "Fel's Wrath" positioned perfectly head-to-head against his Vader at Range 1. Vader shot first and killed him. My opponent was just about to pull my figure but I reminded him who he was dealing with, and his face fell with disappointment.

The best part was that his TIE fighter that was covering Vader's tail was in range of Fel's Wrath, but not my Vader who was just beyond him. So if his Vader had shot my Vader, he could have had both his ships attack, but he effectively negated his other TIE fighter's attack. It was a thing of beauty.

The worst part was that his Vader completely evaded "Fel's Wrath's" attack. Still, I can definitely see this pilot being useful. The trick is to play really aggressively with him. It's a waste to get "Fel's Wrath" killed in a round where he doesn't have an opponent in his firing arc.

At the moment, I'm thinking that I'll be using Expose a lot out of wave 2 with my rebels. A Green Squadron A Wing that uses Expose is very similar to a X-Wing with a larger action bar, as long as I can hand out extra actions from Dutch, Squad Leader or Garven. Alternatively, Luke or Wedge with Expose and R2-F2 & Stealth Device can stay really defensive.. until a good shot lines up and then switch gears to being really offensive.

Picasso said:

I think this brings me back to my original point about needing to have multiple firing arcs covered. I'm glad you've found this as well, that the boost action can totally change what you can and can't attack. This is a very important point that very few people have found out, from what I have seen. Like I said earlier, for Imperials, this takes away some of the squad cohesion that was necessary in Wave 1, in favor of being able to face your ships multiple ways in order to cover different firing arcs. This takes a whole new style of play for Imperials, and I don't think many people have found that out yet. With Wave 1, there was a learning curve for how to play Imperials. With Wave 2, there's a brand new learning curve just with TIEs, not to mention the Firespray. I think once people figure out how effective the Boost action is, you will see the shift away from swarms towards individual pilots that do well by themselves.

And another point about Awings/Interceptors, they both have 3 agility. If you can learn how to fly them close to asteroids without hitting them, you will be able to use that extra die, which can be a big difference. I played a game against Ziggy, and he was skirting the asteroids very well, using them for the extra die, and it was quite effective. Especially once you throw Stealth Device onto either ship, you're rolling a lot of defense dice. This is another instance where the Boost action comes into play, because if you end your maneuver close enough to an asteroid, you can do the bank Boost and hide behind it fairly easily.

AncientAngel said:

This has been discussed in an earlier thread:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=331&efcid=6&efidt=764343

The general feeling is that splash damage does not remove Stealth because of the way being "hit by an attack" is defined in the rule book. There is room for the other interpretation, though, and we await the next FAQ to (hopefully) clear up many questions about Wave 2 stuff.

And to bring this back on-topic: re: Stealth Device, hothie has it right that it may be one of the big game-changers. The times I've used it (or faced it), it has proven to be very powerful. I've been victimized by that Dark Curse of his that has never been hit…

What I've found that works best against Stealth Device and Dark Curse combo are four different tactics.

1.) As I've mentioned else where in this thread using multiple Assault Missiles to deliver splash damage to him. You now only need to deal one damage to take him off the board.

2.) Proton Torps. It is risky as all hell, but you can change a die with out a focus use.

3.) Using a YT-100 with Luke as a copilot. On that second attack he can change one focus die to a hit.

4.) The most affective, Wedge. Three dice on three dice favors the shooter statistically. Now you cannot reroll or focus against Dark Curse but you can use marksmanship. OH MY GOD! There is a use for this card!

Before Worlds my cousin asked me why I don't use "Dark Curse" in my list and I said, "Any chump with Marksmanship will shoot him down." I've played against the Dark Curse Combo three times now and I've found that after using him with Marksmanship in two games against it, Wedge rocks it. Any pilot with this upgrade can do it but Wedge does it the best. Which now brings up the age-old argument how to keep him on the board long enough to get the points out of him?

Picasso said:

Biggs +R2F2 + stealth, chewbacca + draw their fire, R2D2 +shield upgrade on himself. no elusiveness for him since you already have marksmanship